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"Arrogant" GATO completes elections


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[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330907534' post='2933473']
If it was of no real matter then why apologise for something so trivial in an embassy?
[/quote]

I don't really recall apologising for anything. I tend to be pretty polite though, so it could well have been that.

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No, OsRavan. OsRavan is the reason there's no Sparta-ODN treaty and it's even been made clear to ODN should they stop following MK around, it could be re-signed. OsRavan is also the person who is causing the most problems in terms of being an MK follower in terms of Sec-Gen.

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To add to Laslo, it wasn't known to be faulty till after the declaration either. Wars begin when you will but they don't end when you please. The goal of GATO from the beginning of the war was to gain a simple victory and no reentry, so stop acting like for a moment that there was anything personal about it against Sparta. Hell Sparta's blocmate hit our treaty partner ( NPO ) first. You don't see GATO or TLR holding Fark's actions against Sparta. Neither of us ever expected ODN to be able to stop Fark from hitting either. Whereas apparently Sparta expected something along those lines from ODN in relation to the MHA war.

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[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1330907724' post='2933478']
I don't really recall apologising for anything. I tend to be pretty polite though, so it could well have been that.
[/quote]
He's talking about me, and I did apologize. Though I apologized specifically for causing hurt to Sparta and any responsibility for ending that relationship. ( I apologized to ODN too ), despite not being gov at the time. I did not apologize for GATO's gov acting on intel and doing what it thought was best for the alliance however. I only apologized for the unintended blowback and collateral damage. Get your apologies right Charles.

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[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1330907768' post='2933481']
To add to Laslo, it wasn't known to be faulty till after the declaration either. Wars begin when you will but they don't end when you please. The goal of GATO from the beginning of the war was to gain a simple victory and no reentry, so stop acting like for a moment that there was anything personal about it against Sparta. Hell Sparta's blocmate hit our treaty partner ( NPO ) first. You don't see GATO or TLR holding Fark's actions against Sparta. Neither of us ever expected ODN to be able to stop Fark from hitting either. Whereas apparently Sparta expected something along those lines from ODN in relation to the MHA war.
[/quote]

The train wreck of a thread within the GATO embassy on Sparta's boards says otherwise. Your train wreck of a thread I might add.

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[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330907468' post='2933472']
It doesn't come in. He has still to learn that part. Sheesh Omni, he has only been doing FA for a few months, give the poor guy a break.
[/quote]
The issue I was discussing was about ODN following in on GATO's declaration and so VE was irrelevant.

VE did what they did for their own reasons. Literally nobody in the GA saw it coming and to my knowledge our government never asked nor begged for the favor. If there was an arrangement I don't much care about it now. It was a pleasant surprise and was convenient enough for me. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth and all that.

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[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330907934' post='2933485']
The train wreck of a thread within the GATO embassy on Sparta's boards says otherwise. Your train wreck of a thread I might add.
[/quote]

Yeah, that was a trainwreck - magicninja went off the hook a bit on that one, and Sparta weren't interested in listening after that, which is a shame because we'd been getting on well until then.

Edited by Laslo Kenez
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[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330907934' post='2933485']
The train wreck of a thread within the GATO embassy on Sparta's boards says otherwise. Your train wreck of a thread I might add.
[/quote]

Read it as you will. My intentions are different than your interpretations and Sparta is free to ask me to clarify what I mean at any time.

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[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1330908107' post='2933489']
Yeah, that was a trainwreck - magicninja went off the hook a bit on that one, and Sparta weren't interested in listening after that, which is a shame because we'd been getting on well until then.
[/quote]

Ah yes, Lanore telling an alliance that "yes, we $%&@ed you hard, build a bridge and get over it" is magic's fault.

[quote]But nobody is contesting that at this point. Laslo admitted the intel was faulty on the owf. Our gov has been offering light peace from day one. This war hasn't been perpetuated in a dishonorable way at all and MHA have been given proper respect in the proceedings. I'd be a liar to tell you I am going to apologize for the entire situation and act as though it is all entirely our faults and that GATO is OH SO SORRY for everything. But I will say I am sorry for the damage we've caused your community as collateral and for acting hastily.[/quote]

Ah yes, we won't apologise for acting on faulty intel but we will apologise for the damages caused by our actions. Forgive me, I was confused by two things which are really so different that they appear pretty much identical to a sane and rational person.

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[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1330908035' post='2933487']
VE did what they did for their own reasons. Literally nobody in the GA saw it coming and to my knowledge our government never asked nor begged for the favor. If there was an arrangement I don't much care about it now. It was a pleasant surprise and was convenient enough for me. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth and all that.
[/quote]

Yea VE is crappy. How do you feel about them saying you are a "liability" and "awful" after using you and your bloc mate to brown nose PB?

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[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1330908428' post='2933494']
Ah yes, Lanore telling an alliance that "yes, we $%&@ed you hard, build a bridge and get over it" is magic's fault.
[/quote]

Eh, I kind of mean that the whole thing went south after magicninja turned up. But quoting out of context isn't going to get much of a rise out of me, Charles.

"Ah yes, Lanore... we $%&@ed..." - Charles Stuart, 2012

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[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1330908981' post='2933503']
Eh, I kind of mean that the whole thing went south after magicninja turned up. But quoting out of context isn't going to get much of a rise out of me, Charles.

"Ah yes, Lanore... we $%&@ed..." - Charles Stuart, 2012
[/quote]

Fair enough. Well, just in the interests of fairness.

[quote]That kind of leaves only one option. Yep, we $%&@ed you. $%&@ed you hard. I maintain it wasn't intentional. I don't think ODN wanted to do it very much. I maintain we thought it was necessary. We thought our intel was right. The whole thing felt like an inevitability. Still, all the reasons aside, we $%&@ed you. Not in the sense of "we personally wrecked and screwed Sparta over" but definitely in the sense of " We gave you the biggest middle finger we could. " We didn't want to; I think that shows. We had a " it's just business " mentality about it. We did our best to ensure easy peace for your allies. ODN didn't outright cancel their treaty and just say " you know what, $%&@ you sparta " . But you are right. We $%&@ed you.[/quote]

The topic is about arrogance right? Political ineptitude might have been a better subtitle.

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Omni has his own views, but I do not view VE as awful given Stefano attacked their DoW and TLR has made its sentiments towards VE clear for a long time.

Edited by Roquentin
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[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1330908628' post='2933498']
Yea VE is crappy. How do you feel about them saying you are a "liability" and "awful" after using you and your bloc mate to brown nose PB?
[/quote]

Well it's true isn't it? GATO is WAE and living off a power high we got through joining CnG. VE is just mad that they cancelled on us and don't get to suckle off the sweet teat of power we are currently guzzling from, obviously.

Charles: How was I wrong for refusing to act like the entire situation was our fault? No seriously. GATO remained relatively outside of everything up until our declaration. How can you claim we were responsible for the circumstances that put us in an XX/CnG war when XX hit a CnG ally first? You're being silly if you are saying that I should have apologized for the entire scenario and DoS NPO and crew issued. I should have apologized for TOP/Iron hitting NpO too. Hell I should have taken it a step further and apologized for Polar as well since apparently that was the cause of the first declaration that triggered the front. Clearly I have a reason to feel bad about that.

Look, my alliance's gov acted on intel it thought was proper and constituted a war with MHA in the defense of our allies. I am sorry the intel turned out to be faulty. I am sorry Sparta feels personally affronted and hurt over it. I am sorry for a lot of the circumstances that lead up to it. That doesn't make myself or GATO responsible for those circumstances. It definitely doesn't make myself or GATO responsible for Sparta's feelings. And strategically speaking it doesn't make our declaration all too less relevant.

There is a difference between being sorry and taking responsibility for something. I quit apologizing for my alliance a long time ago because we have nothing to apologize for. If you take remorse for a situation as a whole as admittance of being wrong entirely you are an emotionally bland person. As for the Sparta embassy I wrote a lot of walls of text in response to a lot of emotionally charged sentiments and went out of my way to roleplay as a messenger of peace and love simply because I don't hate Sparta and enjoy quite a few of them as individuals and because arguing is fun. You'll notice not too long after I was put in actual office I quit with my fun and ended it by closing the embassy because nothing fruitful could come of it. What a surprise, I act differently when governing for a body of individuals outside myself than I do when I am only a representative of myself.

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[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1330909428' post='2933511']
You'll notice not too long after I was put in actual office I quit with my fun and ended it by closing the embassy because nothing fruitful could come of it. What a surprise, I act differently when governing for a body of individuals outside myself than I do when I am only a representative of myself.
[/quote]
Pretty sure that when you're a diplomat somewhere, you represent your alliance, not just yourself.

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[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1330909932' post='2933516']
Pretty sure that when you're a diplomat somewhere, you represent your alliance, not just yourself.
[/quote]

There's still a lot of context missing and to be honest, I think posting from a private embassy is pretty poor etiquette, particularly when I cannot even access it anymore. In terms of debating a matter, it's a lot like boxing with a one armed man.

Edited by Laslo Kenez
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[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330910413' post='2933520']
I'm glad you're of that opinion though. Mushroom Kingdom is not.
[/quote]

well we had better declare war on them then!

e: On a wider note... I have no particular desire to, that embassy is dead for good reason, and I shouldn't really have to discuss content from a private embassy on the OWF anyway.

Edited by Laslo Kenez
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[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1330909932' post='2933516']
Pretty sure that when you're a diplomat somewhere, you represent your alliance, not just yourself.
[/quote]
Not when you state you're no longer gov and can't give an official opinion with the MoFA/AC no longer in the embassy. I pretty much went over to be Sparta's punching bag after Magicninja. I took hits for a good 5+ pages and let them vent their rages. Said a bunch of stuff at least half of which I no longer remember or care about. When it was time to be done I ended it.

What I do remember were these sentiments:

Yes we messed some stuff up. We aren't perfect and have our reasons. I'm sorry you got hurt, I'm not sorry we did what we did. I still personally like you and our alliance as a whole doesn't have much against you. If you choose to come around in the future we'll be here.

Notably since the engagement, because that was quite some time ago, some of Sparta's actions have changed some of my opinions. That's between myself and Sparta though, not myself and you.

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[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1330910279' post='2933518']
There's still a lot of context missing and to be honest, I think posting from a private embassy is pretty poor etiquette, particularly when I cannot even access it anymore. In terms of debating a matter, it's a lot like boxing with a one armed man.
[/quote]

Let me know when I can bring the other hand out from behind my back.

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[quote name='Lanore' timestamp='1330910615' post='2933525']
Not when you state you're no longer gov and can't give an official opinion with the MoFA/AC no longer in the embassy. I pretty much went over to be Sparta's punching bag after Magicninja. I took hits for a good 5+ pages and let them vent their rages. Said a bunch of stuff at least half of which I no longer remember or care about. When it was time to be done I ended it.

What I do remember were these sentiments:

Yes we messed some stuff up. We aren't perfect and have our reasons. I'm sorry you got hurt, I'm not sorry we did what we did. I still personally like you and our alliance as a whole doesn't have much against you. If you choose to come around in the future we'll be here.

Notably since the engagement, because that was quite some time ago, some of Sparta's actions have changed some of my opinions. That's between myself and Sparta though, not myself and you.
[/quote]
Ouch, trying to clean up for magicninja? I feel ya there.

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I'm kind of walking on a tight rope here for a reason, but the number of treaties C&G has to DH and PB outweigh the one treaty you have to SF/XX. Logic.

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