Captain Enema Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 This entire thread is pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggressivenutmeg Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 [quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1320294254' post='2837463'] This entire thread is pathetic. [/quote] Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsage Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I agree as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PresidentDavid Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) If we complain a little less then I think things will get better. But I'll move to the OOC thread, that's not what this thread is for. Edited November 7, 2011 by PresidentDavid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) [img]http://s8.postimage.org/g8lvoqi9f/War_Roll.jpg[/img] 2 Rolls Towards sneaking in 2 Spy Sectors of 500 spies into Greenland. Edited November 27, 2011 by Rotavele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted November 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 [quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1322367427' post='2853254'] [img]http://s8.postimage.org/g8lvoqi9f/War_Roll.jpg[/img] 2 Rolls Towards sneaking in 2 Spy Sectors of 500 spies into Greenland. [/quote] Could you upload a new image? This one isn't showing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Wilding Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 Requesting spy rolls on both Maelstrom Vortex and jesbro to place pro-Communist elements in their government. Rolls for jesbro: [img]http://i.imgur.com/pEKGo.png[/img] Rolls for Mael: [img]http://i.imgur.com/s2VRZ.png[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted November 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 For jesbro: 1-70 is a win, 71-100 a lose For Mael: 1-10 is a win, 11-100 a lose 20 53 Jesbro: Win Mael: Lose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=106863&view=findpost&p=2853923 Objection to the existence of mines, which were not RPed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) Kankou beat me too it. Maels entire post regarding my ships and subs is !@#$%^&* and a godmod. He did no RP to detect the subs, he never RP'd the mines, + he even admitted his ships have a 5 miles ish range, and my subs are 20km away from the rearmost ship in the convoy making detection all but impossible. +Mael doesnt seem to understand submarine warfare or how they work, So I wont even indulge his foolish comment in regards to sonar, baffles and mine detection. GM ruling please, I would like Mael to continue with his threatened course of action if I breached his sovereign waters in which he would open fire. I will not be accepting any ruling about pre existing mines until I see a post previous to the last several days which clearly states by Mael, that he has turned his ports into naval minefields. After doing my own research, I have failed to find any such post. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=103295&st=0 Edited November 27, 2011 by Zoot Zoot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) If he had gone through the Channel, it would have been very easy for Mael to track the subs, given the relatively shallow depth in addition to the formations underwater. However, since he went through the Arctic and down into the North Sea, Mael would have no methods of tracking. Edited November 27, 2011 by Kankou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted November 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 Zoot first of all it is not up to you to accept a ruling or not, whatever is ruled is law for the cnrp continuity. On the subject at hand, Mael will have to show us a post within the next 24 hours proving the mines were laid a long enough time ago to justify their completion, if he can not deliver such a post in this timeframe the mines are void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1322425959' post='2853956'] Zoot first of all it is not up to you to accept a ruling or not, whatever is ruled is law for the cnrp continuity. On the subject at hand, Mael will have to show us a post within the next 24 hours proving the mines were laid a long enough time ago to justify their completion, if he can not deliver such a post in this timeframe the mines are void. [/quote] And what about the detection of my Submarines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'm wiping the insta detect of subs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) It's not insta detection, therefore the ruling isn't relevent. The Submarines took hours to close, there are sonars along the coast and the Sea-Sprites had been doing drops 2 posts prior. The Submarines were tracked as soon as they entered the range of the sea-sprite's recon range and the coastal sonar. It's not like the Submarines have a lot of places to hide in the shallows off the coast of France in/near the English channel. Post with initial use of Sea Sprites and notation that I was blind of the Submarines until they entered the channel which was specifically being Targeted for Patrols: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=106863&view=findpost&p=2853307 The Mines were laid in association with the move to DEFCON 1 and the return to DEFCON 2 which the French Military responded to when France nearly entered war at the request of Empress Courtois. It's a logical action to the defense of the nation when preparing for a time of intense conflict. Unless we want to start some rules where every single logistical action that would be common to a modern army must specifically be played out resulting in RP taking pages to write in order to conduct a war.. and cannot accommodate that an escalation or De-escalation in defensive posture comes with some of these common sense defensive actions.. RPing conflict will become outright ludicrous and a job that none here will want to take upon themselves. So since you want the specific posts where the Defenses were escalated I cite these: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=106528&view=findpost&p=2849709 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=106528&view=findpost&p=2850377 Which occurred well before this set of internal and external conflicts begin. While they do not specifically mention the laying of mines, they do specifically mention the preparation of border and coastal defenses as well as plans for a naval deployment.. although I'm not certain which Navy Sarah was referring to given I have no capitol ships.' Zoot, I am not going to say who does or does not understand sumbarine warfare, but I will say that anyone who truly understands it will tell you that the English Channel and the waters near it would be some of the most difficult places on Earth for a submarine to hide, especially when closing on a sea-port. I mean, give me a break.. are you trying to hide a submarine that close to shore? Addressing your concerns point for point here: [quote] Kankou beat me too it. Maels entire post regarding my ships and subs is !@#$%^&* and a godmod. [/quote] Nope, you probably are just not aware France had recently been in a defense condition as high as readiness level 1. [quote] He did no RP to detect the subs, he never RP'd the mines, + he even admitted his ships have a 5 miles ish range, and my subs are 20km away from the rearmost ship in the convoy making detection all but impossible. [/quote] Not exactly correct. I do have a post with my sea-sprites and the WEAPONS range for the PT BOATS is 5 milesish. Detection range is MUCH higher simply due to the fact Sonar works over a much larger range. They're using torpedo and depth charges.. they don't exactly fly or swim that far. However, the coastline anti-submarine missile batteries are much longer ranged. [quote] +Mael doesnt seem to understand submarine warfare or how they work, So I wont even indulge his foolish comment in regards to sonar, baffles and mine detection. [/quote] Calling me names without an intelligent argument will get you places and make you look SOOO much more intelligent.. I'll let you do the name calling here and get back to your points. If you'd like to go into detail about what exactly I'm getting wrong in regards to these items I'd enjoy discussing that with you. After all, I'm not the one who thought I could detect a surface fleet of PT boats through the English Isles with Sonar from the North Sea. That was you. [quote] GM ruling please, I would like Mael to continue with his threatened course of action if I breached his sovereign waters in which he would open fire. [/quote] I will not need to open fire, the defenses of a sovereign nation are already in place and active defense does not need to occur unless desired. You do need to respond to the passive defenses which you are now aware of. [quote] I will not be accepting any ruling about pre existing mines until I see a post previous to the last several days which clearly states by Mael, that he has turned his ports into naval minefields. After doing my own research, I have failed to find any such post.[/quote] http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=106528&view=findpost&p=2849709 ^ Movement to Defcon 1, which includes the action of mining harbors and establishing safe zones for permitted naval traffic during a time of war. DEFCON 1 isn't.. "Our guards are standing at the border staring at the enemy while chewing gum. Our Navy has our guys on shore leave." In Europe, where proximity is tight, mining of harbors has occurred in every major war since the invention of the mine where nations were on their highest security level. Apply a little common sense please? The fact you think a simple Convoy.. followed by a few submarines.. not even support vessels.. could get into French harbors unmolested and undetected at its highest state of security is both nonsensical and to a degree insulting to your perception of CNRP's France. Also, if you want extensive detail, then I want you to site me a post where you armed and refueled your submarines before you had them leave harbor? Otherwise I will recognize them as unfueled, unarmed floating barges in the middle of the Channel able to be sunk on a whim. Remember that your standards for preparations for RP go both ways. You are engaging a sovereign nation on a high state of alert that has been in place for weeks before these events and which has a technology level well high enough for extensive and safe mining of their harbors and ports for defense. I understand you may have been caught off guard by the fact the mines are there.. since the posts for the defcon escalations had occurred in a prior thread you may not have read.. but that does not mean they are not there. Plus, being caught off guard by mines is kind of what they are intended for. Your convoy has been offered help to get out of the trap they have walked into without carrying or using mine detection equipment. Your subs may find them later.. but right now, as you said yourself, they're 20KM away. Some interesting facts about the English Channel which are statistically relevant to this incident: It is relatively shallow, with an average depth of about 120 m (390 ft) at its widest part, reducing to a depth of about 45 m (148 ft) between Dover and Calais. It is about 560 km (350 mi) long and varies in width from 240 km (150 mi) at its widest to 34 km (21 mi) in the Strait of Dover. You're going to be near North France, so you are going to be near the Strait of Dover.. even 20 KM out.. you're going to be hard pressed to hide your submarines in any thermoclines with that shallow depth. [img]http://www.srh.noaa.gov/jetstream/ocean/images/thermocline.jpg[/img] Also.. since you know so much about Sonar Zoot.. care to enlighten the rest of us as to why thermoclines are critical to sonar? Physics and Terrain if we go by normal laws of physics and normal terrain for the region dictate two things in conjunction with my use of sea-sprites, absolute air superiority in the area, and the proximity to my coastline: 1. I know exactly where every vessel you have is, especially if I go active sonar and some of those sonar bouys from the sea-sprites are in fact using active. They have been tracked since they entered the East mouth of the channel. 2. Your submarines were only aware of the Surface Fleet because of the radio information relayed by your own surface vessels in the convoy until they entered the channel and they themselves picked up the ships on Sonar, possibly radar if they were surfaced. Unless one of us is God and can manipulate mother nature and physics, the above are true. And based on my posts we know 1. My mines have been in place for a while as part of national passive defenses common in any war in Europe since the invention of naval mines during a major world war or high state of alert. 2. Mines are meant as surprise weapons and since you were not aware of my state of alert and your convoy was not stated to be searching for or detecting mines.. you ran into them. In conclusion: Stop souring the rp, go with it and lets play. I take my lumps, you take your lumps.. we're all squared. If you want to play out your intrusion into the channel and the waters of France encounter by encounter.. sea-sprites vs your submarines giving the physical constraints you're going to have to deal with. I'm all for it. Your submarine alone constitutes 1/5th the space between the surface of the ocean and the sea-floor in these waters.. I hope you realize that. What will almost inevitably happen is that you'll be detected and you won't be fired upon.. as has already occurred thus far in the RP. Then you will be actively tracked.. as has thus far occurred in the RP. Edited November 28, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 [u]About the mining[/u] Could you provide any evidence that European countries had mined their own harbors in times of emergencies? Given the inherent dangers of mines, I find it highly unlikely that any sane nation not in such a desperate situation as being completely overwhelmed by a amphibious invasion would go the extreme if laying mines in their own harbors. This is most likely why most of us are against the idea that you had mined: It is contrary to what most of us (among who has at least a good understanding of military defenses) would consider to be standard procedure in times of tensions. [u]About the Submarines[/u] If I'm correct, Zoot used the Astute class submarine, which is specifically designed to operate in littoral conditions such as the English Channel without being detected. Also, here's a map of the geographical situation near Calais (using the Channel Tunnel): [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Channel_Tunnel_geological_profile_1.svg/640px-Channel_Tunnel_geological_profile_1.svg.png[/img] At 20 km out, we could be at a depth of approximately 60 meters, which is actually plenty of room for an Astute class to hide itself. Furthermore, we're discussing a pretty busy port, which if it had somewhat normal activities could not have been mined, or if it was mined would have been empty of activity. Since there is no real indication that there has been a decrease of activity, it logically follows that there cannot be any substantial mining. Of course, this particular part is for the GMs to decide. There's also a side nitpick: Did you actually have your Sea Sprites (whatever they are) enter Irish waters without them knowing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1322462134' post='2854545'] [u]About the mining[/u] Could you provide any evidence that European countries had mined their own harbors in times of emergencies? Given the inherent dangers of mines, I find it highly unlikely that any sane nation not in such a desperate situation as being completely overwhelmed by a amphibious invasion would go the extreme if laying mines in their own harbors. This is most likely why most of us are against the idea that you had mined: It is contrary to what most of us (among who has at least a good understanding of military defenses) would consider to be standard procedure in times of tensions. [/quote] It is a known fact that almost all major powers that fought during WW2 mined their own harbors with mine fields only their submarines and shipping had a map or path to navigate safely. There are even films made about this including a U.S. Submarines' Run on Tokyo and there is a story of a German Uboat breaching mined Harbors in Scapa Flow in WW2. While the movie is made in hollywood, the story and the movie are based on actual events and naval procedures of the time. When mines where discovered and nations were at the highest state of alert, they went into common use. They were also used by Iraq during Desert Storm and possibly the latter war.. I'm not certain on the 2003 conflict because I think Iraq may have been broke or not had time to replace them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destination_Tokyo ^Also a very good movie if you ever get a chance to watch it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapa_Flow [quote name="Wiki"] New blockships were sunk, booms and mines were placed over the main entrances, increased anti-aircraft batteries were installed at crucial points and Winston Churchill ordered the construction of a series of causeways to block the eastern approaches to Scapa Flow; they were built by Italian prisoners of war held in Orkney. These "Churchill Barriers" now provide road access from the Mainland to Burray and South Ronaldsay, but block maritime traffic. [/quote] http://www.ipcs.org/article/military/war-in-iraq-sea-mines-and-mammals-1012.html ^ Extensive use of mines (and dolphins) in the middle east theater. Triyun may like this one. The Chinese love Mines so much the US navy actually researched their use and intent: http://www.usnwc.edu/Research---Gaming/China-Maritime-Studies-Institute/Publications/documents/CMS3_Mine-Warfare.aspx [quote] [u]About the Submarines[/u] If I'm correct, Zoot used the Astute class submarine, which is specifically designed to operate in littoral conditions such as the English Channel without being detected. Also, here's a map of the geographical situation near Calais (using the Channel Tunnel): [img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Channel_Tunnel_geological_profile_1.svg/640px-Channel_Tunnel_geological_profile_1.svg.png[/img] At 20 km out, we could be at a depth of approximately 60 meters, which is actually plenty of room for an Astute class to hide itself. Furthermore, we're discussing a pretty busy port, which if it had somewhat normal activities could not have been mined, or if it was mined would have been empty of activity. Since there is no real indication that there has been a decrease of activity, it logically follows that there cannot be any substantial mining. Of course, this particular part is for the GMs to decide. There's also a side nitpick: Did you actually have your Sea Sprites (whatever they are) enter Irish waters without them knowing? [/quote] If an established safe navigation corridor is established, there is no reason for shipping to decline unless the port is at its maximum utilization. Even then, what is and is not maximum utilization of a port would not be known unless observed over time and that is recon that is not accessible to USRS currently. As to the sea sprites: No, they've been using the French side and the international waters section of the approach to the Channel. You only need one active sonar really pegged near the center point at the narrowest point in the channel to see just about anything passing through it and that's basically dead in the middle of the channel. So they could have done the job without access to the Irish side. Once a location is known it's just a matter of tracking. The Draught of the Astute Class Submarine in question is as follows: Draught: 10 m (33 ft) This constitutes 1/6 th of the depth you've posted which means an active sonar would have to be blind NOT to see it. It'd only require 1 sonar bouy off of one PC-3 Orion or Sea-Sprite to do the job. The density level of the ship would constitute 1/6th of the floor to surface density in the region of the ocean it occupies. Naval mines remain in common use today. While Wiki is of course not the perfect source, it is a useful reference.. so here is a history of Naval Mines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine Some nations, notably the U.K. has stopped use of mines, but sufficient numbers of them still do so. Then again, the U.K. hasn't been under serious threat of invasion or major neighboring conflict since the end of the cold war and only stopped using them in 1992. All revisions complete, this post will not be touched now, except one minor revision to improve clarity... done as of: 2:05 am Edited November 28, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Let me make one thing perfectly clear. Nobody gets to inherit super dug out bunkers and !@#$ from IRL regimes, I don't give a damn if its Hitler or Kim or whatever tin pot dictator did it in the 20th century. You don't get to inherit mega projects like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kankou Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 [quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1322462590' post='2854562'] It is a known fact that almost all major powers that fought during WW2 mined their own harbors with mine fields only their submarines and shipping had a map or path to navigate safely. There are even films made about this including a U.S. Submarines' Run on Tokyo and there is a story of a German Uboat breaching mined Harbors in Scapa Flow in WW2. While the movie is made in hollywood, the story and the movie are based on actual events and naval procedures of the time. When mines where discovered and nations were at the highest state of alert, they went into common use. They were also used by Iraq during Desert Storm and possibly the latter war.. I'm not certain on the 2003 conflict because I think Iraq may have been broke or not had time to replace them.[/quote] I did say that when not in extreme emergencies. Given how France is not in any immediate dangers of invasion, mining of harbors is just overdoing it. Furthermore, in this age of satellites, it is a very simple thing to check which path shipping takes and use the same path. Of course, there are remote controlled mines and the like, but I believe we need to go into specifics when RPing such mines out. [quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1322462738' post='2854572'] Let me make one thing perfectly clear. Nobody gets to inherit super dug out bunkers and !@#$ from IRL regimes, I don't give a damn if its Hitler or Kim or whatever tin pot dictator did it in the 20th century. You don't get to inherit mega projects like that. [/quote] Where the hell did this come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1322463257' post='2854589'] I did say that when not in extreme emergencies. Given how France is not in any immediate dangers of invasion, mining of harbors is just overdoing it. Furthermore, in this age of satellites, it is a very simple thing to check which path shipping takes and use the same path. Of course, there are remote controlled mines and the like, but I believe we need to go into specifics when RPing such mines out. [/quote] France has only very recently been ordered into and out of DEFCON 1. That constitutes the highest level of emergency a military can be raised to. USRS has not stated it has had this region under observation until the conflict began and it still requires espionage to notice the shipping pattern changes since the mines can be moved occasionally and ships re-routed to create alternating routes that appear to be natural. Without eyes on the ground, no one would be aware it is happening. I politely disagree with your conclusion as I've cited over a century of frequent and common mine use in naval warfare at the highest defense level of a variety of nations. It should be assumed a nation is going to have some defenses in place on their borders.. and on their coasts at that level of defensive condition. It is the responsibility of the aggressor to state what actions they are taking to defuse those defenses in the process of their incursion. no such actions were taken.. nor likely possible given the use of a transport convoy without mine detection equipment. Edited November 28, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1322462738' post='2854572'] Let me make one thing perfectly clear. Nobody gets to inherit super dug out bunkers and !@#$ from IRL regimes, I don't give a damn if its Hitler or Kim or whatever tin pot dictator did it in the 20th century. You don't get to inherit mega projects like that. [/quote] What is this in reference to? Otherwise.. the rice is white in China. Also, I call dibs on building the extensive underground network that was geographically design specifically for Vietnam.. in France and inheriting Napoleon's Banking System. Kidding. Edited November 28, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beauty Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1322420325' post='2853877'] Could you upload a new image? This one isn't showing up. [/quote] [img]http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/4949/warroll.jpg[/img] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoot Zoot Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 As it no longer matters, I am dropping my claim, but as I never said my ships were in the mouth of the harbor, and that they had just breached the maritime border, twelve miles out to sea, I hit no mines and my ships didn't blow up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted November 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 [quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1322467950' post='2854671'] [img]http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/4949/warroll.jpg[/img] [/quote] 1-50 win 51-100 lose 23 96 1 win On the subject of the mines, they are hereby officially void. In none of the posts quoted did you actually outline the deployment of the mines, likewise the timeframe between the so called deployment and the rp is way too short for it to be completed. So the post detonating the mines and all actions made as a result are null and void. Likewise in the future you can not automatically assume mines are being deployed and the actual deployment will take much longer than a few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PresidentDavid Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 [quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1322462738' post='2854572'] Let me make one thing perfectly clear. Nobody gets to inherit super dug out bunkers and !@#$ from IRL regimes, I don't give a damn if its Hitler or Kim or whatever tin pot dictator did it in the 20th century. You don't get to inherit mega projects like that. [/quote] Correct me if I am wrong, I am sure you will, but I believe the GMs can not make up rules on things like that. You would have to ask the community to vote on it. You can make rulings on rules that already exist, but not just pull a new ruling out of nowhere... I didn't mean that to sound rude - just blunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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