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I tried really, really hard to stay out of this thread because I know people say things they don't really mean when they're upset, but $%&@ it, at this point.

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1302355556' post='2687386']
We were always there for you and your allies when they started wars, and had I known at the time it would make you guys so angry to shed a little NS fighting someone much smaller than you like IAA, I'm sure we could have done things differently and let you sit out and gain your sanction and flag while in peace.[/quote]
It gets really, really tiring hearing how we made all of our own decisions so we should be happy about them. Yeah, I made my own decisions, and I'll own that. I'm not going to pretend I made them in a vacuum, though, and I'm definitely not going to pretend I'm happy about all of the choices I had to make. Let's take IAA as an example. Leaving aside the fact that it was made very clear to me by certain parties that if I didn't help your side, we'd be attacked for fighting SLCB, because honestly, I was going to help you anyway since that's what good allies do, I was still given the options of "Declare war on an alliance who is fighting the same alliance as Ragnarok" or "Declare war on an alliance who is fighting iFOK" which I shouldn't have to point out, doesn't exactly seem to be a fan of ours. So yeah, I made my own decision to declare on IAA, and I personally had [i]far[/i] fewer problems with it before people started telling me that if I wasn't overjoyed by the decision, then it was my own fault and I shouldn't have made that choice, which has been going on pretty much since I made that call.


[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1302355556' post='2687386']
I'm sad that I spent so much time answering questions forged from clear misconceptions of what went on, and saw that you guys seemed to be satisfied with how it was going. The thread went to its fourth page, not the two that Impero said, but the point is the same. Generally, when the last four posts include 3 about which browser Impero is using, and one about Impero's political skills, and everyone seemingly satisfied that the Q+A had run it's course, that's when you sit there and say to yourself that why would they cancel the treaty, Delta said the membership had concerns and we were quick to address them.[/quote]

And, following off of what I just said, I don't blame you for the fact that we had to make that decision, or for the option we chose. I do for the idea that any problem we might have was born from "clear misconceptions" and nothing could possibly be an actual issue. Yes, I was frequently in the top milcom channel for the war working out these issues, because my alternative would have been telling you to "$%&@ off" and I don't particularly like that option when it comes to dealing with my friends. It isn't as though I hid my feelings about the situation from the get go. Hell, I got into a shouting match with Imp before we were even engaged in the war over the fact I was planning on defending Rok. One which resulted in my threatening to walk out entirely. I'm glad we calmed down and worked out a deal, but that doesn't mean I was "gung-ho planning man" this war, by any stretch of the imagination.

And for the record, the final page consists of five posts. The first contains two questions from an RIAer. The next three are joke posts. The final one is a criticism of one of Imp's replies in the thread. And they were all posted the same day as Impero's last response in the thread.

I don't blame you for thinking the thread had died, because that's how I remembered it as well until one of my members pointed out to me that there were outstanding requests for information in the thread that had gone ignored, but my members came away with the impression that when the heat turned up, VE walked away. I'd allow you the obvious "misconceptions" response, except you did actually randomly vanish from the Q&A, so I'd be hard pressed to lay the fact that it died on anyone else's feet. People have a tendency to stop asking questions when nobody is responding to the posts that are already there.

Edit2: I also just re-read the thread, and the closest thing I could find to anyone being satisfied in there was a brief de-rail when we got sanctioned. This was followed by a list for questions from ShadowSlayer that Impero answered, and then two follow up questions from him that nobody responded to, except a couple of RIA members asking about internet browsers or commenting on Imp's posting. So honestly, I'm lost as to where you got the impression that this was a successful Q&A that ended because you had nothing left to respond to.

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1302355556' post='2687386']
RIA was my first job as a diplomat around two years ago. I was one of the biggest supporters of what became the MDoAP upgrade. I'm angry at how this ended up, angry at how people like James Dahl see this through the blinders that they have put on, angry at how involved RIA was in this from the start, but their membership felt like they were being 'dragged'.

I've heard comments about how 'I liked VE before this thread but after this I don't know.' Cancellation is not the act of a friend, and you do not see how we are (rightfully) jilted? I'm sure with work down the road our relationship can mend, for the same reasons it stayed strong for well over two years, but for now, allow us our moment of anger/sadness at an old friend doing this to us.
[/quote]
Regardless of how I feel about the situation, you have every right to be angry. I would be in your situation, and I was under no illusions about the effect of this decision.

Edit: typo

Edited by Delta1212
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[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1302361681' post='2687412']
I tried really, really hard to stay out of this thread because I know people say things they don't really mean when they're upset, but $%&@ it, at this point.[/quote]

It was kinda inevitable you'd have to say something.

Very enlightening...it makes your moves during the war more understandable. Good luck moving forward.

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[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1302334530' post='2687317']
That's not what you guys were saying, but no need to derail this further and it wouldn't be accurate to say NPO wasn't a factor at all. I just got tired of stuff like VE somehow being unique in "exercising firm political control."
[/quote]

Alliances on our side were excited about it because plenty of them wanted the NPO ... that is probably where the confusion comes from. RoK's motivations for hitting the NSO had nothing to do with the NPO though. We have not cared one way or another about that alliance for two plus years and RoK/NSO were on a collision course for some time regardless of who they were tied to.

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[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1302366112' post='2687436']
Translation: You joined our hit list RIA.
[/quote]
Yeah they're right after Duckroll :rolleyes:

Honestly it's sad to see these two alliances go their separate ways as I like both of you, but judging by the posts in this thread it seems like the relationship had deteriorated beyond repair.

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[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1302366475' post='2687438']
It's not like we haven't spent the last couple months having a productive and positive QnA with RIA or anything.
[/quote]
Umbrella = VE?

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[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1302368048' post='2687445']
We have a two thread Q&A on the Umbrella forums that's been going since mid-December. :v:
[/quote]
well then, that explains why I couldn't find it on our forums. <_<

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[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1302353768' post='2687378']
Thats how I remember it as well, although I enjoy and am entertained when people try to assign more then what is there. We all do it, ive done it but it dosent make it any less entertaining. Anyway I thought this was about Shatt? Now the umbrella people are here? GOONS coming in next or were they pages 4-8 ? Never let up Wally, say hi to Alfred for me. :)
[/quote]
Don't blame me: [snapback]2686794[/snapback]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1302341714' post='2687339']
This is, by far, one of the most intelligent things I have ever seen posted here.
[/quote]
Why, thank you. [snapback]2682720[/snapback]

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1302361681' post='2687412']
I tried really, really hard to stay out of this thread because I know people say things they don't really mean when they're upset, but $%&@ it, at this point.[/quote]
Quite the opposite, upset people utter the thoughts they're too reserved to say until they're angry.

The posts in this thread from VE to the effect that RIA should never ever have cancelled their treaty because they're friends and have been to war together are so childish that I can barely believe that I'm seeing them, even from VE. Can I expect reinstatement of VE's NPO and NpO treaties next week? Friends aren't allowed to have different goals and aims? If VE's idea of friendship is so shallow as to be nothing but goose-stepping in perfect unison forever and never questioning things, then it's no wonder they're losing friends so fast. Newsflash, VE: You're not that good. Your selling point is PB, and--surprise--it just so happens that not everyone is in the market for that.

Edited by Schattenmann
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[quote name='Xavii' timestamp='1302368098' post='2687446']
You assume to much.
[/quote]

History usually repeats itself and those in power tends to become more aggressive in the course of time with those who dislike them or their acts, so my assumptions probably will become true, soon or later.

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[quote name='Sarmatian Empire' timestamp='1302369481' post='2687457']
Best of luck to both parties. I'm sure youll both be fine blah blah blah.

Let me remind you (penkala), that I'm sure the VE-RIA ODP has some kind of peace, lets be friendly clause in it that your probably violating
[/quote]
Article VIII – CIVILITY
Both signatory alliances shall be resolute in their insistence that their respective members remain polite and civil to each other at all times, especially in public forums and other public venues. a)Unless it's followed by pictures of themselves wearing fairy dresses and holding up cans of Cambell's Soup.

I'm sure VE will get right on that.

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[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1302361681' post='2687412']
I tried really, really hard to stay out of this thread because I know people say things they don't really mean when they're upset, but $%&@ it, at this point.


It gets really, really tiring hearing how we made all of our own decisions so we should be happy about them. Yeah, I made my own decisions, and I'll own that. I'm not going to pretend I made them in a vacuum, though, and I'm definitely not going to pretend I'm happy about all of the choices I had to make. Let's take IAA as an example. Leaving aside the fact that it was made very clear to me by certain parties that if I didn't help your side, we'd be attacked for fighting SLCB, because honestly, I was going to help you anyway since that's what good allies do, I was still given the options of "Declare war on an alliance who is fighting the same alliance as Ragnarok" or "Declare war on an alliance who is fighting iFOK" which I shouldn't have to point out, doesn't exactly seem to be a fan of ours. So yeah, I made my own decision to declare on IAA, and I personally had [i]far[/i] fewer problems with it before people started telling me that if I wasn't overjoyed by the decision, then it was my own fault and I shouldn't have made that choice, which has been going on pretty much since I made that call.


And, following off of what I just said, I don't blame you for the fact that we had to make that decision, or for the option we chose. I do for the idea that any problem we might have was born from "clear misconceptions" and nothing could possibly be an actual issue. Yes, I was frequently in the top milcom channel for the war working out these issues, because my alternative would have been telling you to "$%&@ off" and I don't particularly like that option when it comes to dealing with my friends. It isn't as though I hid my feelings about the situation from the get go. Hell, I got into a shouting match with Imp before we were even engaged in the war over the fact I was planning on defending Rok. One which resulted in my threatening to walk out entirely. I'm glad we calmed down and worked out a deal, but that doesn't mean I was "gung-ho planning man" this war, by any stretch of the imagination.[/quote]

Fredo, your breaking my heart here. Are you really trying to say that all of your involvement in planning this thing out was because you were afraid you would be attacked? Are you serious? If thats the case, it damn sure is exactly like you hid your feelings about the situation from the get go. You weren't "given the options", you worked out a plan hand in hand with the rest of us, after hours of discussion. You did the same after the Rok ordeal was solved and weighed in on many other situations that did not involve RIA, including the hit on NPO. Now, maybe its just me, but that sounds like you were working with your allies and extended network of friends as we all always have at the top level when a war or near war breaks out, not being forced under type of duress. Listen, I've always kind of acted under the assumption (even though I know that its not that case) that you were RIA, but if this is the kind of stuff your relaying to your membership about your involvement, then no wonder they are pissed.




[quote]
And for the record, the final page consists of five posts. The first contains two questions from an RIAer. The next three are joke posts. The final one is a criticism of one of Imp's replies in the thread. And they were all posted the same day as Impero's last response in the thread.

I don't blame you for thinking the thread had died, because that's how I remembered it as well until one of my members pointed out to me that there were outstanding requests for information in the thread that had gone ignored, but my members came away with the impression that when the heat turned up, VE walked away. I'd allow you the obvious "misconceptions" response, except you did actually randomly vanish from the Q&A, so I'd be hard pressed to lay the fact that it died on anyone else's feet. People have a tendency to stop asking questions when nobody is responding to the posts that are already there.

Edit2: I also just re-read the thread, and the closest thing I could find to anyone being satisfied in there was a brief de-rail when we got sanctioned. This was followed by a list for questions from ShadowSlayer that Impero answered, and then two follow up questions from him that nobody responded to, except a couple of RIA members asking about internet browsers or commenting on Imp's posting. So honestly, I'm lost as to where you got the impression that this was a successful Q&A that ended because you had nothing left to respond to.


Regardless of how I feel about the situation, you have every right to be angry. I would be in your situation, and I was under no illusions about the effect of this decision.

Edit: typo
[/quote]

There was nothing left to respond to from what I remember and what the rest of my gov who was there remembers, I even directly asked Shadow to get your members asking more questions because of that.

And, like I said, I'm not angry. Some of my members are, but I understand what you told me on IRC (after shadow basically gave no reason at all for the cancellation).

Edited by Il Impero Romano
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[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302370048' post='2687465']
There was nothing left to respond to from what I remember and what the rest of my gov who was there remembers, I even directly asked Shadow to get your members asking more questions because of that.
[/quote]
Gee, given all the talk about how important your friendship was I would have assumed that you checked the thread yourself and would answer the hanging questions that remain there to this day.

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302370340' post='2687467']
Gee, given all the talk about how important your friendship was I would have assumed that you checked the thread yourself and would answer the hanging questions that remain there to this day.
[/quote]

I did, and there weren't from what I saw. Really, just get the hell out of this thread and go stare at yourself in the mirror some more or make a list of reasons why you think you are the second coming of jesus or something. I know you can't help yourself and need to try and interject yourself into every little situation that exists so you can try and make it into a PR point for the people you have a personal grudge against, but it's a nuisance to have to keep on slapping you around. This stuff is far above your pay grade and now that we are getting into the thick of it, you really have no idea what the hell your talking about.

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[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1302369569' post='2687458']
History usually repeats itself and those in power tends to become more aggressive in the course of time with those who dislike them or their acts, so my assumptions probably will become true, soon or later.
[/quote]

The sample size for your generalization is literally one.

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So that's a "no." Pity, you lost a good friend. I mean, when you say there were no more questions, and then RIA reveals that there were several, it signals to everyone out here in TV Land that you either thought that the concerns of RIA membership were beneath you, or that you didn't care enough about the relationship to stay on top of the thread.

Edited by Schattenmann
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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302280341' post='2686892']
Do you know what I like about me? [b]I have philosophies and ideals that guide my actions, and I'm consistent on them. One of those ideals is a foreign policy that is congruent with internal policy:[/b]

Whammy.

I [still] for one applaud and laud RIA's decision to conduct [i]its own affairs[/i] in [i]its own interests[/i]!

Are you guys bored? You want a war to save the planet from imploding under the weight of boredom caused by lack of war? Curbstomps never were and still are not the answer. Hate to break it to you, PB and Dh--I mean VE managed to lose over 30 nations in a winning war.
[b]Your overlapping, illogical, wub-based treaties are the cause, and getting rid of them is the solution.[/b]
VE has never, ever, once in its entire history understood this concept. Ever. Consequently, VE has gone around decrying PZI while backslapping PZIers, talking high morality about curbstomps while propping up curbstompers. On and on and on. In this very thread you continue to demonstrate your basic inability to understand the way a foreign policy works. That has been my criticism of VE for years and if my crystal ball is still working, it will continue to be my criticism of VE for years to come. VE doesn't get it.
[/quote]


[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302368474' post='2687451']
The posts in this thread from VE to the effect that RIA should never ever have cancelled their treaty because they're friends and have been to war together are so childish that I can barely believe that I'm seeing them, even from VE. Can I expect reinstatement of VE's NPO and NpO treaties next week? [b]Friends aren't allowed to have different goals and aims? If VE's idea of friendship is so shallow as to be nothing but goose-stepping in perfect unison forever and never questioning things, then it's no wonder they're losing friends so fast.[/b] Newsflash, VE: You're not that good. Your selling point is PB, and--surprise--it just so happens that not everyone is in the market for that.
[/quote]

I get the first post, where you complain about VE's lack of enforcement of our ideals when it comes to choosing allies. (like not minding that our allies don't sign the ZIPP)
This has been a frequent complaint of yours, as you said yourself. This is why the second post surprised me. Could you elaborate on what you meant?

Also, sucks that this treaty was cancelled. Sadly this thread has to be followed by the usual anti-VE lynchmob that is expected on the OWF.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302371400' post='2687478']
So that's a "no." Pity, you lost a good friend. I mean, when you say there were no more questions, and then RIA reveals that there were several, it signals to everyone out here in TV Land that you either thought that the concerns of RIA membership were beneath you, or that you didn't care enough about the relationship to stay on top of the thread.
[/quote]

How about you let RIA decide how they feel instead of putting words in their mouth?

Edited by leprecon
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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302371400' post='2687478']
So that's a "no." Pity, you lost a good friend. I mean, when you say there were no more questions, and then RIA reveals that there were several, it signals to everyone out here in TV Land that you either thought that the concerns of RIA membership were beneath you, or that you didn't care enough about the relationship to stay on top of the thread.
[/quote]

Not at all, and that's not even close to what I said, or what's true.

So that's an admission then that you literally cannot help yourself and have a compelling need to interject yourself into situations that have nothing to do with you, harp on them incisively, and try to frame the interactions of others in such a way as to further your own personal grudges then? Or are you just replying with random things that would have worked if you got the response that you wanted because your a disingenuous hack? Just get over it, it's not going to work out for you here. VE and RIA still hold a treaty, despite the surprise that this cancellation took many of us by and reaction that resulted therefrom. We will give our best in working past whatever reasons brought this about, so all your selfish posting to try and put this in a light that will aid your own goals is in vain.

Edited by Il Impero Romano
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