Kongo Jack IV Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301603966' post='2681605'] Ah, so let's use your logic then: Since defending NPO from GOONS's aggressive attack, Invicta has come under aggressive attack from MK--So where's Europa? We can expect an updae blitz this weekend [i]I'm sure.[/i] The simple fact of the matter is just as I've said: Europa has split its loyalties. There is absolutely no one stupid enough to believe that if any of Europa's allies came under attack by Doomhouse that Europa would help that ally. Thus, we're going to see more cancellations, or there are some alliances out there that will hold onto these treaties like security blankets, and that's just how much protection they'll offer if the rubber hits the road, as much as a blanket might. [/quote] Well, if anyone wants to cancel on us for not "picking sides," or choosing allies over one another, then I'm okay with it. Like I said pal, I'm always available for a private chat if you really wish to learn a true side of us. Edited March 31, 2011 by Kongo Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Kongo Jack' timestamp='1301604139' post='2681606'] Well, if anyone wants to cancel on us for not "picking sides," or choosing allies over one another, then I'm okay with it. Like I said pal, I'm always available for a private chat if you really wish to learn a true side of us. [/quote] If there's some hidden virtue to a policy of signing non-chaining treaties with alliances destined to go to war with each other, I'm sure you'll want to tell me what it is out here where everyone else can benefit from this new knowledge of Europa's charm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kongo Jack IV Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301604429' post='2681610'] If there's some hidden virtue to a policy of signing non-chaining treaties with alliances destined to go to war with each other, I'm sure you'll want to tell me what it is out here where everyone else can benefit from this new knowledge of Europa's charm. [/quote] Then like I said, I'm available for a private chat anytime buddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o-dog Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301603966' post='2681605']There is absolutely no one stupid enough to believe that if any of Europa's allies came under attack by Doomhouse that Europa would help that ally.[/quote] If DH attacked BFF, Europa would be there in a heartbeat fighting alongside its FEAR and Wolfpack comrades. Our only link to DH knows this, as they know there are other relationships we have that hold equal, if not more weight, than our treaty with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thrash Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301602850' post='2681590'] Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. What part of mutual defense with Invicta involves Europa sitting on its over-extended ass "not partak[ing] in this war in anyway" while GOONS pounds Invicta and demands $300,000,000 in tribute from them? I know everything I need to know about Europa based on its sloppy foreign policy; I know everything I need to know about you based on your inability to see what the problem here is. So if you think that sending some token aid to Invicta post-war is the same as helping them in battle, you need to just ~keep your mouth shut~ [/quote] Schatt, while I can't speak for TOOL, I can tell you that we were informed by Europa that they weren't getting involved, and we understood that and had no issues with it. Please cut them some slack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Che Guevara Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301603966' post='2681605'] Ah, so let's use your logic then: Since defending NPO from GOONS's aggressive attack, Invicta has come under aggressive attack from MK--So where's Europa? Oh, there's that non-chaining language keeping you from facing reality. The simple fact of the matter is just as I've said: Europa has split its loyalties. You've got one foot in the Duckroll and ex-Heg camp, and one in the Doomhouse camp. There is absolutely no one stupid enough to believe that if any of Europa's allies came under attack by Doomhouse that Europa would help that ally. Thus, we're going to see more cancellations, or there are some alliances out there that will hold onto these treaties like security blankets, and that's just how much protection they'll offer if the rubber hits the road, as much as a blanket might. [/quote] Here's a funny fact: You aren't Europa, nor are you Invicta. That means you don't know the inner workings of our treaties. Now, I know this will be really complicated for you, but what that means is that we can make a decision and not tell you about it. Isn't that crazy? You really aren't the amazing, all-seeing eye of the world you think you are. When this war started, Europa was literally less than a month out of a curbstomp. We were in no position to aid militarily, and our allies knew and understood this. If you'd like to attack our resolve again, ask any of our allies that have peaced out about the aid we've flooded them with. They'll be sure to fill you in. Until then, shut your mouth and go back to your insignificant hellhole of an alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wu Tang Clan Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 After this thread, I'm beginning to like Europa a lot more. Good show guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R3nowned Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 I must say, this treaty cancellation has stirred up quite a bit of controversy, though anyone that knows me would know my position on this cancellation and on either alliance. Not exactly OWF sharing material though. I can say this though. Europa: You need to get your FA path sorted. While Schatt said it in a rather rude way, he was right in the fact that you can't just sign treaties on both sides of the web. It just results in you having to declare neutrality every time a major war comes along. Keep relationships from other realms separate to this one. TOOL: It is rather uncharacteristic of you to cancel a treaty during a war. I'm not sure what to think of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the dakotans Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 [quote name='R3nowned' timestamp='1301637805' post='2682002'] TOOL: It is rather uncharacteristic of you to cancel a treaty during a war. I'm not sure what to think of this. [/quote] The reason we have the policy of not cancelling on someone during a war is twofold. 1. We don't want to cancel on someone that might be dragged into the war and need to call on the treaty. It would make us a terrible alliance regardless of the situation if we cancelled on the eve of war to avoid said war or a certain side. You should sleep in the bed that you made. 2. Sometimes in the heat of the moment you might really dislike how an ally has handled the way that they've gone about the war and want to cancel on them. However if you just wait until after the war you can see how in retrospect it was a relatively minor issue, and the friendship can be saved and can even thrive afterword. The thing with this treaty is it was an ODP. We were never counting on Europa to activate it and join the war that way. If the situation was reversed and I was in their position I wouldn't have activated it. They have friends on both sides and our treaty with them should have been the least of their FA priorities. Also, Europa has been quite clear with us from the beginning( as has been stated earlier in this thread )that they wanted to be neutral and since we're already fighting we don't need to worry about using it in the off chance that we could chain in with it. So reason 1 isn't relevant. Regarding situation two, the issue we have with Europa if you want to call it that isn't just because of this war. It became more noticeable because the war happened though. The inactivity of both sides in dialogue with the other has been going on far too long. There is no bad blood on our side and I'd hope there is none on theirs. It was just a case of a treaty that neither one of us really had our heart into anymore. Also, this wasn't all because of your comment. I just have no clue why this thread is still going on and wanted to clear up a few things Like I said earlier, I wish Europa nothing but the best, they have some really great guys and I know the future is going to be bright for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernesto Che Guevara Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 I'll reply to both of the above posts. First off, no ill-will towards TOOL for cancelling this in a war. We aren't at war, so it really doesn't hurt us much. We still[img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/wub.gif[/img]them, as we've said many times. In terms of our FA path being a bit screwy, yes, we understand that. We've been working towards resolving that, but we're more or less stuck between two loves right now. Thus far in this war we've proven able to help all of our treaty partners with everything except military action. I think that's more than just nothing. Granted, if any of our MD+ allies asked us directly to get involved, we would do so. However, they understand and accept our position in the treaty web, and some of them have seen that position work to their advantage. Traditional? No. Conventional? No. But Europa never claimed to be a standard cookie-cutter alliance. We're the crap that falls off the cookie sheet and burns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaBuc Posted April 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='R3nowned' timestamp='1301637805' post='2682002'] TOOL: It is rather uncharacteristic of you to cancel a treaty during a war. I'm not sure what to think of this. [/quote] Europa is not at war and, as they have stated in this thread, is not likely to be a part of this war. -Bama Edited April 1, 2011 by BamaBuc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canik Posted April 1, 2011 Report Share Posted April 1, 2011 [quote name='O-Dog' timestamp='1301609569' post='2681658'] If DH attacked BFF, Europa would be there in a heartbeat fighting alongside its FEAR and Wolfpack comrades. [/quote] The Government of FEAR knows without a doubt Europa would be there for us or Wolfpack if need be. An attack on one of us is an attack on all of us, and in a rather literal sense, considering we hold dual-membership treaties with one another. Schatt go stick your nose somewhere else. There is nothing wrong with Europa's foreign policy. Or TOOL's for that matter. Both are honorable alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Gunn Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301602850' post='2681590'] Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. What part of mutual defense with Invicta involves Europa sitting on its over-extended ass "not partak[ing] in this war in anyway" while GOONS pounds Invicta and demands $300,000,000 in tribute from them? I know everything I need to know about Europa based on its sloppy foreign policy; I know everything I need to know about you based on your inability to see what the problem here is. So if you think that sending some token aid to Invicta post-war is the same as helping them in battle, you need to just ~keep your mouth shut~ You've got half a dozen treaties on one side of the web and you're ignoring them all based on one treaty on the other, that's all anyone needs to know about Europa and I'll be flabbergasted if there aren't a half dozen cancellations on Europa post-war (hell, tomorrow, even). What else is there to know? Please, enlighten me, I really can't wait to hear this one: [/quote] Let us handle our foreign affairs and our relationship with Europa, mmkay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1301627059' post='2681875'] Here's a funny fact: You aren't Europa, nor are you Invicta. That means you don't know the inner workings of our treaties. Now, I know this will be really complicated for you, but what that means is that we can make a decision and not tell you about it. Isn't that crazy? You really aren't the amazing, all-seeing eye of the world you think you are. When this war started, Europa was literally less than a month out of a curbstomp. We were in no position to aid militarily, and our allies knew and understood this. If you'd like to attack our resolve again, ask any of our allies that have peaced out about the aid we've flooded them with. They'll be sure to fill you in. Until then, shut your mouth and go back to your insignificant hellhole of an alliance. [/quote] Ew, such spittle and vinegar! You know I've found people start telling me to shut up right about the time I start being too correct. What is this "you don't know us" bull you two keep pulling out? It is a screen thrown up, but despite your outburst to the contrary, I do see beyond it. [img]http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/cndump/Lugosi/lugosisig.jpg[/img] I told you, I know everything I need to know about Europa, and you've only confirmed it. The situation is simple, it is crystal clear. Everyone sees it but you. So what do you do? Act like a child and yell "shut up." Poor thing. Until you understand that this is a political forum, you will always be upset. This is not a critique only of Europa, it is a critique of almost every alliance. You're all hopeless. You have outlined your own problem [i]exactly[/i] as I have already stated it: [quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1301652291' post='2682085'] In terms of our FA path being a bit screwy, yes, we understand that. We've been working towards resolving that, but we're more or less stuck between two loves right now. [/quote] The core problem of the treaty web is this "love" and "friend" childishness. And that is exactly what it is, infantility in foreign affairs. Treaties are political--not social--commitments. The transformation of treaties from political tools to popularity contests has destroyed all integrity in treaty commitments. Why is that? Because while alliances sign treaties over they still go to war to achieve political means. They have moved treaties--which are tools of war--out of the political realm, while war retains its political nature, thereby creating a conflicting reality, a dichotomy that cannot be reconciled. Practitioners of this huggles diplomacy decry PZI while MADPing alliances that PZI, they decry techraiding while joining blocs with rampant raiding alliances, they talk about white peace while MDoAPing alliances hellbent on reps--and vice versa. They make claims as to their uniqueness and intrinsic values, but don't understand or practice unity of foreign and internal policy, they make themselves flavorless social clubs, or brainless meatswarms fit for nothing but doing what they're told. Their hands are tied by their own lazy, sloppy, stupid practices, and they turn around and complain about how bored they are. [quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1301652291' post='2682085']Thus far in this war we've proven able to help all of our treaty partners with everything except military action.[/quote] Congratulations, you're helping people with whom you've signed military pacts with everything except military action. Pure genius. I've got this all wrong, my apologies. [quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1301652291' post='2682085']and some of them have seen that position work to their advantage. Traditional? No. Conventional? No. But Europa never claimed to be a standard cookie-cutter alliance. We're the crap that falls off the cookie sheet and burns. [/quote] Quote the contrary. You're doing the exact same thing that almost every alliance is doing. There is nothing remarkable about Europa, and I say that in the most disinterested, dispassionate manner possible; it is simply my observation and the same observation I have of almost every other alliance. There is nothing distinguishable between 100 alliances who all scream the rhetoric of honor and death before dishonor and friends>infra and we love our friends and which all find themselves sitting on their hands when the time for action comes, or else carefully tip-toeing around so as to appear not to be plotting against their friends or selling them out while they do it. There's nothing different about 90% of alliances, they might as well all merge. [quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1301627059' post='2681875']Until then, shut your mouth and go back to your insignificant hellhole of an alliance.[/quote] Statements like this from micros crack me up. CoJ had as many members as Europa pre-war, a higher ANS, more nukes, higher score, and a higher ranking, and--since you got all kindergarten--we have a Senator on top of that. The only differences between CoJ and Europa is that CoJe put ourselves on the line for what we believe in, and that we don't treaty-whore like a bunch of children sending half the class a "do you like me? circle yes for treaty" note. Your one ally is able to leverage tribute money from your other ally while you stand by idle precisely because you do not matter; your ill-contemplated foreign policy has made you impotent and really quite worthless to both sides. [quote name='Canik' timestamp='1301669432' post='2682183'] Schatt go stick your nose somewhere else. There is nothing wrong with Europa's foreign policy. Or TOOL's for that matter. Both are honorable alliances. [/quote] Quite the contrary, the broad trends of foreign policy effect us all. Edited April 2, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 [quote name='President Gunn' timestamp='1301721220' post='2682716'] Let us handle our foreign affairs and our relationship with Europa, mmkay? [/quote] No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Boris Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301721395' post='2682721'] No. [/quote] You know, if I may make a simple observation here, if you worked as hard on other ventures (a play, for example) as you do on attacking Europa's foreign policy, I daresay CoJ would likely be at peace and rebuilding by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicknight Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301603966' post='2681605'] You've got one foot in the [b]Duckroll[/b] and ex-Heg camp [/quote] They do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sithis Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301721369' post='2682720']The core problem of the treaty web is this "love" and "friend" childishness. And that is exactly what it is, infantility in foreign affairs. Treaties are political--not social--commitments. The transformation of treaties from political tools to popularity contests has destroyed all integrity in treaty commitments. Why is that? Because while alliances sign treaties over they still go to war to achieve political means. They have moved treaties--which are tools of war--out of the political realm, while war retains its political nature, thereby creating a conflicting reality, a dichotomy that cannot be reconciled. Practitioners of this huggles diplomacy decry PZI while MADPing alliances that PZI, they decry techraiding while joining blocs with rampant raiding alliances, they talk about white peace while MDoAPing alliances hellbent on reps--and vice versa. They make claims as to their uniqueness and intrinsic values, but don't understand or practice unity of foreign and internal policy, they make themselves flavorless social clubs, or brainless meatswarms fit for nothing but doing what they're told. Their hands are tied by their own lazy, sloppy, stupid practices, and they turn around and complain about how bored they are.[/quote] Classic "the treaty web is terrible" argument. Should've gone with the Chewbacca Defense though, it's much more convincing. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301721369' post='2682720'] Quote the contrary. You're doing the exact same thing that almost every alliance is doing. There is nothing remarkable about Europa, and I say that in the most disinterested, dispassionate manner possible; it is simply my observation and the same observation I have of almost every other alliance. There is nothing distinguishable between 100 alliances who all scream the rhetoric of honor and death before dishonor and friends>infra and we love our friends and which all find themselves sitting on their hands when the time for action comes, or else carefully tip-toeing around so as to appear not to be plotting against their friends or selling them out while they do it. There's nothing different about 90% of alliances, they might as well all merge.[/quote] Thank God that there are those 10% of alliances who aren't afraid to stand up for what they believe in. I don't know what this game would be like without alliances like Cult of Justitia or Celestial Being (RIP). Oh wait, yes I do - it'd be exactly the same. While you are an intelligent person, and you have a fairly good understanding of the tangle of cords that is the treaty web, at the end of the day you have little to no political clout. What you and these "honorable" alliances hoping to spread peace and truth throughout the galaxy (or whatever it is you're trying to accomplish) do, at the end of the day, doesn't matter, albeit my replying in such detail to you may be somewhat paradoxical in this instance. For proof, all I can point to is the fact that CoJ entering or withdrawing from the current DH-NPO conflict really has no impact, at all. I don't mean to suggest that might makes right, but you and your ilk are nothing but a larvae among the flies of Doomhouse's swatter. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301721369' post='2682720'] Statements like this from micros crack me up. CoJ had as many members as Europa pre-war, a higher ANS, more nukes, higher score, and a higher ranking, and--since you got all kindergarten--we have a Senator on top of that. The only differences between CoJ and Europa is that CoJe put ourselves on the line for what we believe in, and that we don't treaty-whore like a bunch of children sending half the class a "do you like me? circle yes for treaty" note. Your one ally is able to leverage tribute money from your other ally while you stand by idle precisely because you do not matter; your ill-contemplated foreign policy has made you impotent and really quite worthless to both sides.[/quote] One difference you left out is the fact that CoJ are the ambulance chasers of CN. Be it tech raiding, hegemony, reps, or whatever bleeding heart cause is permeating these discussions, without fail CoJ will be there to take up the cause. I suppose if it makes you feel important, please continue to be the vanguard of whatever injustices you fool yourself into thinking exist, although don't expect the rest of us to act like you actually matter. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301721369' post='2682720'] Quite the contrary, the broad trends of foreign policy effect us all. [/quote] On this we agree. Unfortunately not enough people realize that it is the [b]broad[/b] trends that affect us, and instead live on these boards and nitpick every tiny detail of foreign affairs. And here we are. Edited April 2, 2011 by Sithis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckz3 Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 [quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1301722154' post='2682726'] You know, if I may make a simple observation here, if you worked as hard on other ventures (a play, for example) as you do on attacking Europa's foreign policy, I daresay CoJ would likely be at peace and rebuilding by now. [/quote] Boris I would also like to point out that the Cult wishes for peace and it is our enemy whom does not. I know me and you have had many rational conversations so I say this now, How much do you know of the current affairs between CoJ and the Alliances we are at war with. Now as I doubt you know much about the situation (As with most on the OWF). I implore you to please come and chat with any of us before even thinking that we have no wish for peace, as we are all very rational fellows, Well except Sargun :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helena Cain Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Oh well. Another one bites the dust. Best of luck to both parties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 [quote name='Lord Boris' timestamp='1301722154' post='2682726'] You know, if I may make a simple observation here, if you worked as hard on other ventures (a play, for example) as you do on attacking Europa's foreign policy, I daresay CoJ would likely be at peace and rebuilding by now. [/quote] If FEAR is content to grovel in the dirt in exchange for peace then FEAR is welcome to do it. The Cult of Justitia is an organization founded upon firm ideals, which espouses strong ideals, and which acts upon strong ideals; we don't fault alliances with little more than generic, mealymouthed vagueries about honor[sup]TM[/sup] and brotherhood(c) for not understanding why we don't jump at the first sign of the way out. [quote name='mythicknight' timestamp='1301722158' post='2682727'] They do? [/quote] Between their treaties, they're firmly linked to ex-heg, less so to Duckroll, and less still to Dh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Sithis' timestamp='1301722554' post='2682730'] Classic "the treaty web is terrible" argument. Should've gone with the Chewbacca Defense though, it's much more convincing.[/quote] Followed by the "you are irrelevant" standard. So irrelevant that you know everything we've done in the past year, that your coalition is charging us the second-highest reps, that you were compelled to reply to me but unable to address anything I said. For so much smuggo you've got so little substance. Even your summation of my position belies your inability to understand what I have just said, which was in no way "the treaty web is terrible." But whatever makes you feel important. Come back when you have some ideas. Maybe I'll change my name to Schattenideen and then you can start replying to my ideas rather than to my person. Edited April 2, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borimir Resurrected Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 Sigh. This thread should not still be alive. Schatt, people can have [i]different[/i] ideas than you and not be [i]wrong.[/i] And you all could stand to be a bit nicer to each other. On a topic-related note, I offer my condolences to Europa and TOOL, both alliances I admire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Borimir Resurrected' timestamp='1301723829' post='2682744'] Schatt, people can have [i]different[/i] ideas than you and not be [i]wrong.[/i] [/quote] And they are welcome to counter my position or promote their own. Edited April 2, 2011 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borimir Resurrected Posted April 2, 2011 Report Share Posted April 2, 2011 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301724059' post='2682747'] And they are welcome to counter my position or promote their own. [/quote] I feel as if doing so by being rude to one another is rather futile. Especially in a thread with very little to do with the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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