Your Argument Sucks

U mad? stop whining. Seriously though, you are a GOON and tied to MK its your friends doing most of what you said

U mad? stop whining. Seriously though, you are a GOON and tied to MK its your friends doing most of what you said

your side is not made up of 100% good posters your argument means nothing

I agree with what you're saying. Reading the endless arguement and counter-arguement that we've all already seen is a bit of a chore and might not be healthy for the game. Hence why I usually only read OP's.

It'll be really tough to change peoples habits in such a competitive enviroment though.

U mad? stop whining. Seriously though, you are a GOON and tied to MK its your friends doing most of what you said

I did say that I see it on both sides. I tend to notice it more on the other side, but I didn't put that in the OP because I can hardly call myself an unbiased source.

That being said:

Problem is that everyone knows you wont do it alone. You will get your allies to come in for you or accept hundreads of ghosts.

You are also part of the problem.

I agree with what you're saying. Reading the endless arguement and counter-arguement that we've all already seen is a bit of a chore and might not be healthy for the game. Hence why I usually only read OP's.

It'll be really tough to change peoples habits in such a competitive enviroment though.

I agree; I don't honestly expect this to make a significant impact by itself, but hopefully if enough people do care there can be some change down the line.

I have been guilty of some of these in the past myself, but didn't notice at the time because I just wasn't thinking about it. If I can bring the issue to the front of even a couple brains, I'll be satisfied.

This is not something that's going to change. It's the legacy of LUE, GOONS, 4chan and all the other humour site invasions which attempted to fuse their culture with the existing political structures years ago. They succeeded to an extent and this is the result. Reasoned debate and candid discourse lost out to memes and disinformation; discussion is no longer about advocating your position, but about degrading your enemies. That's why there's very little substance to any of the posting here: most of it is just vain attempts at 'clever' word games, technicalities of language and repetitious logical fallacies.

See my forum signature. This fight was lost in 2007.

Glad to see someone from GOONS speaking out about this, especially as that part of the treaty web is notorious for injecting such things into a discussion to kill the debate. Though we are not innocent of it either.

Be sure to remove this blog post if people start making valid rebuttals, Ktarts.

Glad to see someone from GOONS speaking out about this, especially as that part of the treaty web is notorious for injecting such things into a discussion to kill the debate. Though we are not innocent of it either.

To be completely honest I'm sure that both sides are "notorious" for this... to the other side. It's part of our psychology as humans to excuse in ourselves and our friends the exact same things we'll condemn others for.

You are also part of the problem.

I’m a product of the OWF environment. If you really cared you would clean up your own back yard before complaining about the conditions of your neighbours back yard.

What you are observing is thought-stopping language, a well used and recognized propaganda technique. You have done well to recognize this.

Can we stop using the word literally for emphasis?

I’m a product of the OWF environment. If you really cared you would clean up your own back yard before complaining about the conditions of your neighbours back yard.

At least he acknowledges that his backyard is also full of !@#$, but at least you put more effort into your NO U post this time. Things are looking up!

Words in someone's mouth - It's one thing to paraphrase someone's words to get at their true meaning, but it's entirely another thing to add any sort of emotion or "flavour text" to it.

This one kills me. It happens to pretty much every post I write.

Anyway, I think this blog is good, but it would be super if it wasn't coming from a high-profile member of an alliance whose idea of how to solve problems is to make people grovel before them for their entertainment.

Be sure to remove this blog post if people start making valid rebuttals, Ktarts.

Were you being ironic on purpose, or did you just not read the blog?

I agree with Doitzel. There was a chance to salvage the situation, but it came and went. The Internet has become our overlords. :<

I’m a product of the OWF environment. If you really cared you would clean up your own back yard before complaining about the conditions of your neighbours back yard.

I am commenting on the state of all political discussion, on both sides. I only singled you out after you tried to tie the problem to a specific source.

Can we stop using the word literally for emphasis?

I will literally never stop doing this on purpose.

This one kills me. It happens to pretty much every post I write.

Anyway, I think this blog is good, but it would be super if it wasn't coming from a high-profile member of an alliance whose idea of how to solve problems is to make people grovel before them for their entertainment.

Were you being ironic on purpose, or did you just not read the blog?

Schatt, why you gotta bring this in my house?

The bottom line is that if people actually cared about the OWF this might change, but they don't, so they won't. Serious discussions don't take place here, thus serious debate tactics are not utilized.

I guarantee you that "u mad" isn't going to get thrown around like autumn leaves in a backchannel when alliances feel they are fighting for their very survival.

Were you being ironic on purpose, or did you just not read the blog?

Of course I didn't read the blog.

I was inspired to post this in another thread, but I feel it is worth repeating for this blog:

This just in: Anything anyone says for the rest of time is now considered crying. Now that it's the official baseline, I suggest the new go-to verb for casting someone's opinion in a negative light be "queen waving", using the disconnect between a modern monarchy existing in otherwise democratic societies to symbolize the distance between what goes on on the OWF and actual political discourse.

Example usage:

We got plenty of people wavin' like the queen all up in this thread.

This is not something that's going to change. It's the legacy of LUE, GOONS, 4chan and all the other humour site invasions which attempted to fuse their culture with the existing political structures years ago. They succeeded to an extent and this is the result. Reasoned debate and candid discourse lost out to memes and disinformation; discussion is no longer about advocating your position, but about degrading your enemies. That's why there's very little substance to any of the posting here: most of it is just vain attempts at 'clever' word games, technicalities of language and repetitious logical fallacies.

See my forum signature. This fight was lost in 2007.

oh come on, are you really going to pretend that there was a golden age of reasoned discourse at any point in this game?

This kind of behaviour has always existed. It existed in NationsStates as well. I think you need to check your spectacles for a rosy tint.

Not a bad list and well written. I've been thinking about this topic also and here are a few others, imo:

1. Attacking spelling and grammar in public.

Who are we, each others mothers? If not,it's rude. If the point is that you really care - send a PM. Otherwise - it's not an argument.

2. Sarcasm (without a point).

This is a variant of name calling that is extremely common on the OWF. If the sarcasm is being used to prove a relevant point (rare, but possible to do) it can work. However, it's way over used and really has a negative affect. The last thing I want to do is be involved with a group of individuals who are constantly throwing sarcastic comments at each other for no reason as insults.

3. Negative predictions.

"That's been done before." "I give it three days until..." "FAIL" "Disband now."

Just because someone else had an idea and it didn't work out doesn't mean it's doomed to failure. Also, just because someone has tried something more than once doesn't mean the result will be exactly the same. There are a lot of factors that determine success and failure, not just the idea or person.

If one is truly concerned, give advice and/or explain why you believe it will not work (other than they tried it in 07).

Is there actually anyone left in CN that doesn't see her for the trash she is?

Rob, i got no beef with you bro but you're just as dumb as her and ill briefly explain why

Someone should just slap that !@#$%* and give a brain to UPN.

Peggy go ahead and leave please. Just go away, no one that matters likes you at this point.

A small sample of discourse that is typical of this community. Now you have seen what happens when one person is railed upon for months on end. You've seen the snap. And Altheus, you bloody liar (see, there's an example of name-calling), I asked you directly at least twice if you wanted me to step aside and give it back to you and you lied to me saying I was doing a good job while the other side of your mouth was urging Kev to convince me to turn UPN into a Triumvirate government situation (as early as June, 2010).

You worked your back channel friends (at the very least 2 others besides Kev) while showing me a false face and for that I will always hold you in contempt.

You didn't want to be the figurehead any longer (we all know Hansarius and DonVox ran UPN, not you) so you gave the keys to a person that was active and willing to work. Then you set about backstabbing.

The discourse on this planet will never improve because it is too easy to let out the negative behaviors we all keep bottled up on Planet Earth. Is that a real person on the other side of the keyboard? No! Of course not! It is only a collection of pixels and text and the awful things we do to one another have no effect on real people.

The bottom line is that if people actually cared about the OWF this might change, but they don't, so they won't. Serious discussions don't take place here, thus serious debate tactics are not utilized.

Well, it will not change if people don't try to change it. But we're in charge of our own actions.

2. Sarcasm (without a point).

This one I was considering adding, but I feel it halfway belongs in a different category of "offending behavior." It doesn't as much stifle the debate as much as it is entirely unproductive. It is still generally unwarranted though, and is actually the one thing I have to check myself on most often. It gets bonus points though, for likely being one of, if not the most prolific annoyances.

The others you posted I entirely agree with. Attacking spelling and grammar is just a back-door ad hom, and the naysaying of bitter vets is a particularly annoying subset of "Unsubstantiated Claims".

*snip*

This is an interesting place for you to soap-box an issue from January, but sure, get it off your chest. Really though, the examples you linked to aren't really what I'm talking about there - they're just people being jerks. Being a jerk and using disingenous argument tactics aren't intrinsically linked (although if you use the latter, you're probably the former.) In fact, the wickedj post you linked actually goes ahead and explains the reasons for his opinion. He's not nice about it, but the discussion continues.

Everyone being jerks isn't a desirable outcome, and I very rarely condone baseless insults; I just want people to understand the difference between that and the topic of my blog.

The discourse on this planet will never improve because it is too easy to let out the negative behaviors we all keep bottled up on Planet Earth. Is that a real person on the other side of the keyboard? No! Of course not! It is only a collection of pixels and text and the awful things we do to one another have no effect on real people.

This, however, is a good point. The veil of anonymity and the barrier of the physical world is what makes a lot of very negative things possible. It's always a good idea to try and remember that if we were all face-to-face, the discussions we have would sound very different. But I would also like to hope that if the events here were to have a significant impact on a person, that that person would have the sense to remove themselves from the situation.

This is an interesting place for you to soap-box an issue I should not have to spell out the way that name-calling, sharp insults, and outright rudeness affect DISCOURSE. That is the topic of your blog ... Stifling Discourse. Discourse is stifled when a person meets those kinds of posts every damn time they show up on the owf. from January, but sure, get it off your chest. Really though, the examples you linked to aren't really what I'm talking about there - they're just people being jerks. Being a jerk and using disingenous argument tactics aren't intrinsically linked (although if you use the latter, you're probably the former.) In fact, the wickedj post you linked actually goes ahead and explains the reasons for his opinion. He's not nice about it, but the discussion continues.

Everyone being jerks isn't a desirable outcome, and I very rarely condone baseless insults; I just want people to understand the difference between that and the topic of my blog.

This, however, is a good point. The veil of anonymity and the barrier of the physical world is what makes a lot of very negative things possible. It's always a good idea to try and remember that if we were all face-to-face, the discussions we have would sound very different. But I would also like to hope that if the events here were to have a significant impact on a person, that that person would have the sense to remove themselves from the situation.