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      Cyber Nations Forum Rules   07/03/2016

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Rolling in the Deep

Schattenmann

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That said, there is plenty of blame to go around regarding what went wrong in the EQ War (on both sides really) and Brehon was by no means solely responsible.

I agree. It is convenient to blame NPO for all of the EQ coalition’s troubles because it was the one that adopted responsibility for leading the (otherwise largely leaderless) eclectic group, and was the most recognised example of the conflicts of interest which plagued the coalition. The more-subtle truth is that the coalition suffered from divergent interests and/or different levels of commitment among many alliances and on multiple fronts which resulted in EQ being less effective than it might have been (which probably would have worsened if the war continued), but that does not fit well with the narrative for this war.

This post is best experienced while listening to:

Your summary gives a half-treatment to the issues.

NPO didn't just "adopt" responsibility for the coalition, they were responsible for the war; they organized it for like 4 months prior. Then they did the exact opposite of take responsibility: They announced that they weren't anyone's boss. Then Brehon disappeared.

NPO is not simply some passive object "example of the conflicts of interest." NPO actively schemed with its Umbrella-aligned allies before the war, made promises of a "handshake peace" made deals about who would be hit and who would not, and made promises about what coalition AAs would be allowed to do or not do. They didn't just have conflicts of interest, they created them and imposed them upon us.

There is no subtle truth about the internal conflict of EQ, there is simply the truth: The divergent alliances were invited to a war and given the impression that it was the Big One we'd all been waiting for for 2 years, and that with NPO abdicating leadership we would be running the war by consensus and to its natural conclusion. But that was never true because, we found out, NPO had already submitted a script to NG and C&G for approval and we weren't to be told until it was time to pull the plug. Then Punxsutawney Brehon came out of his hole he didn't see his shadow, so it was time to end the war whether anyone else liked it or not, and as anyone with a brain might have imagined, we all became quite agitated.

VE was on the verge of surrender after a long and retarded negotiation in which QueenHailee asked for input then went manic and disappeared when she received it, then--while preaching to all of us about our selfish idiocy over DH terms--NPO derailed the VE surrender in a weeklong battle over getting their name in the surrender-to list. Then NPO convened DH peace negotiations against the will of the vast majority of the coalition, thus precluding VE's surrender at all since they knew they could just hang out for whole-Umbrella peace. Thus we lost the crucial serious first surrender.

NPO continued to fake us all out over our supposed voice in the coalition when Brehon opened a thread asking for our beginning point terms for each AA we were at war with in preparation for his peace summit which we told him not to have in the first place. I know, height of irony, but a nice gesture. Then he proceeded to ignore everything we said and present his own terms loosely based on what we had said, to which Umbrella, MK, and GOONS went batcrap while OsRavan (or somebody) reminded Brehon of his "handshake peace" promise. The negotiations were too early for DH's damages to have warranted any serious consideration of peace terms, and Brehon's version of what we told him was too extreme; therefore, they blew us off, and left with the impression that we were ready for peace when we were not.

At this point, NPO should have let the war continue, but they were Hell-bent on the white peace and they were Hell-bent on it now. Brehon, Farrin, and Letum went on an internal campaign of berating the coalition for daring to ask for peace terms; this created massive arguments between NPO and AAs which wanted to continue the war or wanted peace terms, and between AAs who wanted terms and AAs who wanted to cut-and-run. NPO began trying to assert the responsibility/control they had refused at the outset; this set the dickheads on the C&G front on a path of obstinance for obstinance's sake.

Regardless of his clear inability to control anything or speak with a mandate on behalf of the coalition, Brehon again opened peace talks, and again mutated what the coalition wanted--a longer war with DH--into what he thought would work for us and within the promises he made pre-war--a negotiated extended war against Umb only. Sure, that worked very well for NPO with its inactive upper tier and $%&@ed up FA.

In the midst of our objections Brehon lost his blob, announced he was done negotiating, then went to NobodyExpects' Parlor of Love for a massage, and on NE's consult alone took the damn Frankenstein's Peace Monster to DH anyway.

At this point he turned around and told us that NPO, AI, and IRON pre-determined everything about the war and how it would end, and that we could sign the treaty or get bent.

The damage was done. The strife opened up by all this scheming and bullying had turned EQ into a roiling basketcase which signed the peace to get away from NPO and from each other. As ChairmanHal says, "there is plenty to go around" but with this exception: only that some of us could have handled ourselves better in dealing with NPO's crap.

And you know the shame of it all? What was it for? NPO got nothing. All those gymnastics to keep DuckRoll and win over C&G. I wish I got a dollar for every time NPO told us we had to go easy on DH because C&G was cancelling on them after fulfilling their debts this one last time. But you lost it all. Your scheming split arguably your best ally Anarchy Inc. in two and destroyed it, the scheming alienated IRON losing DR for you. And C&G, if the promises were made at all, reneged on them. Everyone in EQ was royally pissed or simply disillusioned. You got nothing out of all that.

Source: NPO Declaration of War and Sing-Along War Report



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NPO had already submitted a script to NG and C&G for approval

Could I possibly get a copy of this script? You know, the script you said I was sent for approval? You know, the script I never approved, or received? Yes, that one, please. Thanks!

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Could I possibly get a copy of this script? You know, the script you said I was sent for approval? You know, the script I never approved, or received? Yes, that one, please. Thanks!

Maybe you didn't get asked, either. ODN (C&G) was made promises and deals along with NG. It's not my narrative problem if GATO wasn't informed.

[16:02] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im not angry, but im dissapointed in what im hearing here i have to admitt. I was under the impression that when this war was ready to end we would shake hands like adults and move on
...
[16:03] <~Brehon[NPO]> Show the faith and shut them down.
[16:03] <&OsRavan[ODN]> how can we do that when what you are now demanding of dh is against what youve been impling you wanted from day one

...

[16:07] <&ncc[NG]> If we peace out this front, we (NG) specifically need something concrete to know you're not going to &#036;%&amp;@ over MK.
[16:08] <~Brehon[NPO]> &#036;%&amp;@ over MK how... and I bent over backwards for

NG on that, you konw this.

[16:08] <&ncc[NG]> I know you did.

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From my perspective, the main goal of the EQ war was to hurt Umbrella. When it was realized that no significant damage was going to be done with the target alliance, it was decided to end the war.

No point for both sides to take damage when the main goal was unachievable at that point.


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"VE was on the verge of surrender after a long and retarded negotiation
in which QueenHailee asked for input then went manic and disappeared
when she received it, then--while preaching to all of us about our
selfish idiocy over DH terms--NPO derailed the VE surrender in a
weeklong battle over getting their name in the surrender-to list. Then
NPO convened DH peace negotiations against the will of the vast majority
of the coalition, thus precluding VE's surrender at all since they knew
they could just hang out for whole-Umbrella peace. Thus we lost the
crucial serious first surrender."

Kind of true. We approached surrendering when it seemed like the end of the war was being dragged out because GATO/TLR/NG decided to wrangle for weeks about how they would go about exiting peace mode, as they "didn't want to be Sparta" (their words, not mine) and sit the whole war out in peace. Lot of talk, no action, with the promise of another "month" of war after they exited peace mode, and since everyone knew they'd ever actually leave, I told Umb I was going to AI rather than wait for Godot.

Dicking around Brehon on that was funny, as it was easy securing AI's support for not including NPO on the surrender document, as I wasn't going to surrender to an alliance by name that didn't officially declare war. We were also looking for things like guarantees of no terms for Umb, which AI and others agreed to, but Brehon got pissy and the talk of surrender died.

I'm normally not one to do this, but whatever, these logs are funny:

[19:46] <Brehon[NPO]> Hey Goldie
[19:47] <Goldie[VE]> sup
[19:48] <Brehon[NPO]> Just a quick question: Did you or did you not post up an acknowledgment of war with NPO (after giving me an opportunity to post a DOW). And did I not also put up a clerical post in which I too acknowledged our alliances at war?
[19:48] <Goldie[VE]> i did
[19:48] <Brehon[NPO]> Additionally did I not grant you what you asked for in the Dave war?
[19:48] <Goldie[VE]> what did i ask of you in the last war?
[19:48] <Brehon[NPO]> So whats the heartburn at NPO?
[19:48] <Brehon[NPO]> Where you not given an out the moment you asked for it?
[19:49] <Brehon[NPO]> Did I not make that out as easy as possible?
[19:49] <Goldie[VE]> this is based solely on the fact that there were alliances that hit us without declaring wars, to surrender to those alliances condones that
[19:49] <Brehon[NPO]> I am trying to understand what the issue is with NPO and VE?
[19:49] <Brehon[NPO]> Did you hit Ai?
[19:49] <Goldie[VE]> i have zero issue with NPO
[19:50] <Brehon[NPO]> Am I not chained to them?
[19:50] <Brehon[NPO]> In fact the ONLY chaining ally I have
[19:50] <Goldie[VE]> stop using questions in each of your statements lol
[19:50] <Goldie[VE]> this isnt personal against NPO, this isnt personal against anyone
[19:50] <Goldie[VE]> i have a lot of respect for what you do
[19:50] <Goldie[VE]> i just dont respect the decision to use 'attack on one is an attack on all'
[19:50] <Brehon[NPO]> It looks that way. In fact it looks like you guys are intentionally pissing on us.
[19:51] <Goldie[VE]> as justification for not declaring a war
[19:51] <Brehon[NPO]> When I posted on MW, I included everyone else we were actually at war with.
[19:51] <Goldie[VE]> no, i just want to be clear that i dont want to surrender to alliances who didnt declare a war on us or who we didnt declare war on
[19:51] <Brehon[NPO]> I acknowledge your post as well.
[19:52] <Brehon[NPO]> You acknowledged a state of war in your post Goldie. This is pure political poppycock.
[19:53] <Goldie[VE]> youre taking something that isnt directed at you personally, very personally, so ill just nip this in the bud and let you cool down
[19:54] <Brehon[NPO]> I am not angry in the least. I think this is indeed a political pissing on the NPO.
[19:54] <Goldie[VE]> thats your incorrect interpretation
[19:54] <Goldie[VE]> im not in any mood for pissing on anyone
[19:54] <Goldie[VE]> least of all people who i have no beef with
[19:55] <Goldie[VE]> we fought a good war with each other, we can continue that level of respect with each other
[19:55] <Goldie[VE]> or we can think that this is a personal attack and not have that respect
[19:55] <Goldie[VE]> it isnt
[19:55] <Brehon[NPO]> But thats just it, you aren't doing that. You are saying it, but not doing it. I don't undetsand why.
[19:56] <Goldie[VE]> put two and two together
[19:57] <Goldie[VE]> regardless of any level of respect we can have for each other, i do not condone people purposefully ignoring the time-honored tradition of officially declaring war
[19:57] <Brehon[NPO]> The fact you acknowledged war and I did my clerical clean up. The moment you aknowledge that war you had no ground to stand on with this /shrugs
[19:58] <Goldie[VE]> as i would not expect those who ignore that to get irked by not being officially surrendered to
[19:58] <Goldie[VE]> so you should make a note underneath the peace agreement
[19:58] <Goldie[VE]> that you acknowledge this as a surrender to NPO
[19:58] <Brehon[NPO]> Or we just keep going /shrugs
[19:58] <Goldie[VE]> thats fine
[20:11] <Brehon[NPO]> Something interesting... you are so bothered by this DOW bit, but you had no problem asking if NPO would sign anything that has reps on it. Gotta have some consistency brotha. However if you didn't ask that of NPO, then I stand corrected.
[20:11] <Goldie[VE]> i asked AI if they would
[20:11] <Goldie[VE]> QH volunteered that you wouldnt
[20:12] <Brehon[NPO]> ahh
[20:12] <Brehon[NPO]> Fair enough then, I retract the comment on consistency.
[20:12] <Goldie[VE]> if youll sign something that says that no reps will be taken of my allies
[20:12] <Goldie[VE]> then i would have no issues with putting my concerns aside
[20:13] <Brehon[NPO]> My word has been solid in my actions. I have said time and time again NPO has no desire for reps and we don't support any rep movement. We have war, there is no reason for reps.

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From my perspective, the main goal of the EQ war was to hurt Umbrella. When it was realized that no significant damage was going to be done with the target alliance, it was decided to end the war.

No point for both sides to take damage when the main goal was unachievable at that point.

I agree with this. Eq didn't have the ability to do more meaningful damage than it would have incurred on itself to begin with. Ultimately, peacing out was the correct decision, but getting there should have had a couple of more steps. A better consensus needed to be built within the main players of the Eq coalition to avoid the results we see today. As it was, NPO was essentially the odd-man-out among the alliances who went in on the first night (who were also the major players). There were some AI gov who also saw it was time to peace out (and again, it probably was), but IRON wasn't happy with it and significant portions of AI were not okay with it either. Consensus was needed with those groups as well.

That the secret deal with ODN and NG wasn't a good move goes without saying.

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Goldie's quotes.

"Dicking around Brehon on that was funny, as it was easy securing AI's support for not including NPO on the surrender document, as I wasn't going to surrender to an alliance by name that didn't officially declare war."

"

The Viridian Entente recognizes the 60+ wars the New Pacific Order has declared on us as an official declaration of war on us by them."

You officially declared it for NPO.

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Once they started throwing a huge hissyfit over the wording of DoWs they themselves approved and asked to include specific wording as such and such and then turned blaming everyone else for it after things got posted at the mere grumbling of certain people outside the coalition (eventually settling on the line that there were "miscommunications" even though everyone knew there wasn't any and they were just rushing to cover their own asses), I knew it was over. I just didn't expect so many more bumps on the road downhill.

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From my perspective, the main goal of the EQ war was to hurt Umbrella. When it was realized that no significant damage was going to be done with the target alliance, it was decided to end the war.

No point for both sides to take damage when the main goal was unachievable at that point.

If, when you say "it was decided to end the war" you are applying your perspective to NPO's decision to end the war, then you are completely wrong. Brehon's argument was the exact opposite: That the goal was to wreck Umbrella, and that we had wrecked Umbrella.

If you're applying your perspective only to DT's acquiescence to the peace process, that's a matter personal to you/DT and I haven't got anything to say about it.

As Roadie distilled it down: The problem was in NPO's underhanded, back-room, my-way-or-highway approach to the war and specifically to peace. High on the list was Brehon's claim that the only goal of the war was to damage Umbrella, that it had been the agreed-upon goal by IRON/NPO/AI, and it didn't matter what the rest of us thought or that no one told us about it until NPO decided it was time to pull the plug. Especially problematic to this reasoning.claim was that IRON wanted nothing to do with peace at the same time NPO was screaming at us that IRON was part of the pre-war decision.

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Maybe you didn't get asked, either. ODN (C&G) was made promises and deals along with NG. It's not my narrative problem if GATO wasn't informed.

[16:02] <&OsRavan[ODN]> im not angry, but im dissapointed in what im hearing here i have to admitt. I was under the impression that when this war was ready to end we would shake hands like adults and move on
...
[16:03] <~Brehon[NPO]> Show the faith and shut them down.
[16:03] <&OsRavan[ODN]> how can we do that when what you are now demanding of dh is against what youve been impling you wanted from day one

...

[16:07] <&ncc[NG]> If we peace out this front, we (NG) specifically need something concrete to know you're not going to &#036;%&amp;@ over MK.
[16:08] <~Brehon[NPO]> &#036;%&amp;@ over MK how... and I bent over backwards for

NG on that, you konw this.

[16:08] <&ncc[NG]> I know you did.

This was not a pre-determined script. This was ODN-NG-TLR looking out for our friends in MK.

The one thing that you may be right about though, is that there was an unofficial script. That script being Brehon's hours and hours of Bootleg shows talking about how he would prosecute and end wars, and how he thought wars should be prosecuted and ended. That any single one of you expected him to do anything other than what he said he would do, well, that idiocy falls at the feet of those who thought that, and goes no further. I realize the concept of someone actually doing exactly what they say they are going to do, is foreign in this realm, but that, in and of itself, is the real problem.

And, back to the "script"... In the context in which you presented it....

There is no subtle truth about the internal conflict of EQ, there is simply the truth: The divergent alliances were invited to a war and given the impression that it was the Big One we'd all been waiting for for 2 years, and that with NPO abdicating leadership we would be running the war by consensus and to its natural conclusion. But that was never true because, we found out, NPO had already submitted a script to NG and C&G for approval and we weren't to be told until it was time to pull the plug.

Your context paints it out as the script being pre-arranged... yet the logs you show are plainly from the preceding 2 weeks before final peace. The entire "Shake hands and go home like adults"... comes exactly from where I said it came from above. Brehon's own words, used on the 1st bootleg show featuring that current war. He stated that he had an objective. That AI had an objective. And when there 2 objectives were achieved, it would be the end of the war. No silly terms, no reps. The fact of the matter is... those of you who opposed to end of the war, wanted nothing more to do with continuing to hit Umbrella. You wanted AI and IRON to foot nearly that entire bill. You cannot even sit on the "But we were busy with C&G" mantra. C&G was well handled at nearly 8 to 1 odds(and still performing exceptionally well.) When you are not doing the lifting on the main target (Umbrella... and this references 80% of your coalition)... you do not gain the right to determine when AI's or NPOs objective is accomplished. You were not there to aid NPOs war effort. Nor to aid AI's war effort. You were simply a bandwagoner taking advantage of finally having numbers on your side (there is nothing wrong with this, but at least call a flipping spade a spade.)

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. The fact of the matter is... those of you who opposed to end of the war, wanted nothing more to do with continuing to hit Umbrella. You wanted AI and IRON to foot nearly that entire bill. You cannot even sit on the "But we were busy with C&G" mantra. C&G was well handled at nearly 8 to 1 odds(and still performing exceptionally well.) When you are not doing the lifting on the main target (Umbrella... and this references 80% of your coalition)... you do not gain the right to determine when AI's or NPOs objective is accomplished. You were not there to aid NPOs war effort. Nor to aid AI's war effort. You were simply a bandwagoner taking advantage of finally having numbers on your side (there is nothing wrong with this, but at least call a flipping spade a spade.)

And here I thought I lost about a year's worth of tech fighting Umbrella's upper tier. Must've just misplaced it.

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And here I thought I lost about a year's worth of tech fighting Umbrella's upper tier. Must've just misplaced it.

Once again... 85% of your coalition would not touch Umb. Who knows, maybe CoJ was more than willing to stick it out longer. But lets not be ignorant of numbers here... it was almost completely AI and IRONs load to bear. AI lost 60% of its pre-war NS. They indeed, had had enough, and gone above and beyond the call. The divide was within AI itself. Because they had segments of gov who wanted it over, and segments who wanted it extended. Once they agreed that they wanted it over, the saw fit to end it. It was THEIR war... not yours. It was THEIR WAR.

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Oh, shucks, I thought the only thing I was missing by not tuning in to Bootleg was penis jokes and [other game] stuff. If only the 3 people that listened had warned the 40 AAs in the coalition.

Rush, retire or don't, but the half-assed, half-crazy stuff has to stop. There is no debate over whether or not promises were made by NPO to NPO's DH-aligned allies, only how many and what they were.

The suggestion that NPO was doing any fighting of note with Umbrella is also absurd, and the conclusion your draw from it (that we were opposed to the extended war bc we didn't want to fight Umbrella) is equally stupid. Brehon came up with the idea of an extended war, and it was NPO which would have been relying on IRON, CoJ, Polaris, MHA, etc etc etc etc to fight it for them.

Half the strife between IRON and NPO was that NPO wasn't pulling its own weight against Umbrella.

Your traitorous friends in EQ might have been telling you lots of tales, but it's clear you got the "how do we make ourselves look good in this" version of events, and have run with it. You're a boob.

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Once again... 85% of your coalition would not touch Umb. Who knows, maybe CoJ was more than willing to stick it out longer. But lets not be ignorant of numbers here... it was almost completely AI and IRONs load to bear. AI lost 60% of its pre-war NS. They indeed, had had enough, and gone above and beyond the call. The divide was within AI itself. Because they had segments of gov who wanted it over, and segments who wanted it extended. Once they agreed that they wanted it over, the saw fit to end it. It was THEIR war... not yours. It was THEIR WAR.

Oh dear, all mixed up again.

The idea that AI agreed to end the war is ridiculous given that QueenHailee had flown the coop, Pansy was gone, leaving the decision to NobodyExpects alone against the will of a vast portion of the AA. He gave NPO what NPO wanted, not what AI wanted, and you see where it got him and AI.

Like Brehon, you claim that the war was IRON/AI/NPO's alone to start and end on whatever terms they saw fit. Let's assume that position for the sake of argument, ok. IRON did not want peace, AI had no consensus on peace. There we go.

The simple fact of the matter is, however, that it was not THEIR WAR because from the first week they refused to accept a leadership role or responsibility. It was OUR WAR.

Boob you are, you're literally arguing against the reality. Look where we are: AI in ruins, NobodyExpects in exile, QueenHailee dead, IRON cancelled on NPO, Valhalla reformed, Pacifica isolated and regarded by everyone from not worth messing with to revulsion.

You are wrong.

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So what you're saying is that I should be thanking NPO for pushing for white peace in the face of stubborn people who felt entitled to reparations? Because that's what I'm getting out of this.

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So what you're saying is that I should be thanking NPO for pushing for white peace in the face of stubborn people who felt entitled to reparations? Because that's what I'm getting out of this.

You may have forgot, but you already know the answer to that question from the first round of talks:

[16:09] <&OsRavan[ODN]> you let DH off with surrender, and ODN pays reps to those who feel our ally have wronged them
[16:09] <~Brehon[NPO]> No reps

[16:10] <&OsRavan[ODN]> say we pay out 100,000 tech? (and I would need to run that by our senate)

[16:10] <&NobodyExpects> no reps
[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> and NPO will not allow for reps

[16:10] <~Brehon[NPO]> No one is paying anyone anything

[16:10] <Sardonic> but, [the terms offered] is worse than reps
A more complete answer, though, is "yes and no" since only a couple AAs had proposed any reps in the first place, and not even close to 100,000 tech (which is equal to $3 billion [probably, I'm not a maths guy]).

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Important historical note to readers: [the terms offered] were something ridiculous like 6 months of no tech importation.

I recalled the term but I was unsure if it had come straight from NPO or if it was truly the voice of the EQ committee of leaders. I suppose you answered that question for me, thanks. Unless other AA's had floated that possibility as well? It was a rather insulting opening offer. :facepalm:

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So what you're saying is that I should be thanking NPO for pushing for white peace in the face of stubborn people who felt entitled to reparations? Because that's what I'm getting out of this.

The people asking for reps were in the minority by a very large margin and some of us, TPF, said we wanted a few k tech (though we were stamping our feet there a bit like pouting brats, so even that wasn't a serious demand). Reparations was a debate internally to Eq that never was going to go anywhere.

The idea of the extended war came up during that same discussion as did the no internal aid term and form the best I recall, the longest suggestion was multiplied by 2, then offered to Umbrella. This is from memory at this point, but I'm pretty sure the longest term suggested was 3 months.The logs of the offer to Umbrella was the first place anybody I know saw 6 months.

At some point shortly after that log was posted, Brehon has said he offered it as 6 because if we wanted 3 months, we have to haggle down from somewhere beyond there. Before peace was reached, many held the view that wars fought during an extended period would amount to a draw and would be pointless as a result. The no aid term was getting some heavy heat for being dropped if for no other reason than it couldn't be enforced.

Brehon agreed to what I suspect in the end is what people would have accepted at least enough to not be driven away by them being offered, he just did it before many important players were ready two.

Two? Really?

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Important historical note to readers: [the terms offered] were something ridiculous like 6 months of no tech importation.

I recalled the term but I was unsure if it had come straight from NPO or if it was truly the voice of the EQ committee of leaders. I suppose you answered that question for me, thanks. Unless other AA's had floated that possibility as well? It was a rather insulting opening offer. :facepalm:

Brehon's offer was peace and no aid for 5 months.

The harshest terms in the terms collection thread were posted by CoJ, and formulated with the expectation of negotiations down:

Surrender by name to each AA Umbrella and MK or its AA-hoppers has attacked regardless of whether a DoW was posted or not, and explicitly to Equilibrium

All nations repatriated to Umbrella or MK AA for the duration of terms

No aid in or out for 90 days

Any nation in violation subject to war

Any aid violation to be repaid in tech 200% (or higher)

No more than 5 nukes on the AA for the duration of terms

After all, MK and GOONS had just spent 2 years giggling about high reps because "if people didn't want to pay high reps then they should negotiate them down."

So you can imagine our surprise when you were so taken aback that Brehon wasn't giving you white peace that you couldn't get the focus to negotiate at all:

[15:58] <Sardonic> I distinctly remember the war being the punishment

being a big thing with you brehon

[16:07] <Sardonic> Your opening offer can't seriously be no aid for 5

months for all of DH? How are we supposed to counter that?

[16:08] <Sardonic> This is leagues worse than reps brehon in economic

damages, and I think you know that.

[16:10] <Sardonic> but, this is worse than reps
[16:10] <Sardonic> by a lot
[16:22] <Sardonic> Seriously though aid restrictions?
[16:23] <~Brehon[NPO]> Lets all remember how negotiations work...

something is offered, something is counter offered.

You all continued to gasp at the idea of terms at all; there was a hilarious discussion wherein you all claimed that aid restrictions and reps are the same thing, literally; OsRavan offered 100k in reps; and Brehon (as Roadie noted) put forward the idea of an extended war with Umbrella at last, which got traction with all of you.
This was March 14th. On the 12th, when Brehon informed us DH wanted talks and asked for our terms, both IRON and AI told Brehon not to convene any peace talks at all, and to simply continue fighting the war.

I've been waiting for the first Schatt entry of the war.

Me too :3

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You are all wrong. That was planned and executed by none other than KingJoe himself. Some of you may know his highness as ChefJoe but we in Ai knew him as King since he said himself that was his war and he worked hard to plan it

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Maybe you didn't get asked, either. ODN (C&G) was made promises and deals along with NG. It's not my narrative problem if GATO wasn't informed.

Well, yes, it kinda is your narrative problem because it's your narrative that you provided false information in.

My advice to strengthen your argument is simply don't lie. It takes away from the legitimacy of your narrative when you do. If you're willing to lie about any aspect, then there's every reason to doubt the other aspects of that narrative.

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Like I said, Dream, it looks like GATO was just out of the smoke-filled back rooms loop. That you weren't included doesn't undermine anything I've said. They didn't tell you that I was spying on GATO, either, did they? But I was.

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Schatt, I am flattered you have chosen my words to spin into your narrative for this war, but you appear to be arguing a point I was not disputing.

My post was intended to acknowledge that NPO made mistakes as highlighted by Hal in his post and Roadie in here, and admitted to by NPO in its DoW. They are well documented, so I didn’t see the need to address them. But you have ignored the point that there were divergent interests and and/or different levels of commitment among many alliances and on multiple fronts. Again, I realise the point does not fit well with how you want to characterise this war, but it is still true.

As you highlight, a claimed coalition objective for the war was to neutralise Umbrella/DH as an ongoing threat, but not everyone was committed to this goal, and in fact many alliances were there simply to honour the treaties by which they entered (or to honour treaty commitments triggered during the war, in the case of Polar/Legion). That is their prerogative and I do not take issue with their stance, but it significantly reduced the probability that the coalition would have a large enough upper tier to deal with the core alliances. Perhaps that is the fault of NPO for setting an objective that not everyone agreed with, but if so, no one should take issue with the war ending when it did (i.e. because it closed down their fronts as they wanted). There was also clear animosity between various coalition partners (resulting in you forcefully defending TPF at one point), which was not just NPO’s fault.

There was also different levels of commitment. The stats showed there was a significant gap between those that were doing the heavy lifting, and those with little or minimal involvement. Heck, you even admitted at one point that CoJ was not pulling its weight. As I commented at the time, I hoped alliances would assess their own performance before calling others out, but it is much more convenient to sweep that all under the rug and blame NPO by default.

I am at a disadvantage to you in arguing this because I don’t think it is classy to call out specific coalition partners. But this is my objective view of the dynamics within the coalition.

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I do not deny nor have I ignored that there were divergent interests, or varying levels of commitment. You and I basically diverge in our sourcing of the serious internal turmoil and the degree to which NPO bears responsiblity.

No one (that I saw) was sniffing around to get out of the war, much less end it altogether, at the point in time that Brehon opened the peace process alone, on March 12th, against even the wishes of AI and IRON despite his later assertion that the acquiescence of both was his mandate to end the war.

Only after NPO made it look like peace was at hand, those few AAs who were tepid in their commitment became itchy for peace. And only After NPO started telling people what we were or were not allowed to discuss for terms did people begin chafing at NPO's sudden tyranny.

You will recall that I begged NPO not to be so stupid as to abdicate coalition leadership, but once they did, that was the MO of the coalition. NPO's reversal created the strife that wrecked the dogged determination of necessity between coalition members.

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