Shadow's Vault

So VE was upset that an alliance that they were at war with hit them? What baffles me further is that they thought they should begin rebuilding while they were still at war. Did they not expect that someone might hit them? It really should not come a surprise to them.

Hey thats me !

All I got out of this is that Avalon's MoFA "rarely" comes on IRC. What is this, 2006?

All I got out of this is that Avalon's MoFA "rarely" comes on IRC. What is this, 2006?

He tends to work a lot IRL. And its a unwritten rule that IRL is always more important than CN.

We knew the war was wrapping up within a couple of days, and obviously Avalon did too. Generally when wars are set to end, you don't run a blitz that would allow you to nuke someone and then get a guaranteed peace, potentially before you can be attacked back. The issue that we raised was that this was a way to exploit the terms that had been 'agreed' to on our behalf, and therefore decided that we would not go along with those terms, but should they want to make more of the war than it was, that we would happily oblige and carry on the war outside of any agreement DH/NPO made.

It was either peace out and not escalate it, or we would show what escalation would be, leading to a scenario where we could very well still be at war with Avalon today (we would not have respected the '21 days and get peace with no strings' agreement had they decided to follow through with their last minute shenanigans to try to get free nukes off).

Nothing about their attack 'surprised' us. Throughout the war when they took people out of PM, they hit us, we hit them, etc, this wasn't the first time. But they wanted a special arrangement that allowed them to exit the war entirely on their own terms, and fight for an extra 21 days with no repercussions, and we were not willing to do that, especially when after their agreement was made, they took more people out of PM to try to do as much damage as possible before getting their free exit when the agreement became official. Our stance was that if you want to fight for longer, and take more people out of PM, that we would nullify that agreement and fight until a resolution was found on our terms.

Avalon agreed, in the end, that their escalation on that front was not worth the nullification of their terms, and the peace was made.

Goldie got it.

If you really, really need to know, in sum you could say our issue was with the terms themselves. Frankly, I felt the whole TPF/Avalon agreement where they stayed in until x time then walked thing was simply very stupid because it fostered a situation where things like that which you touched on in your post could happen without the traditional recourse (i.e. actually fighting the war now that they were out of peace, and we did give Avalon that option). The wars themselves were a symptom of a problem (creation of a stupid term), not the problem itself. I can't lay it all at the feet of the guys who came up with that agreement though, since during that period I was gearing up for finals and semi inactive.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I don't like you at all, but I at least give you credit for some semblance of intellect hidden in that head of yours. You honestly think we gave a rats ass about 4 wars and nukes after we just fought and took literally thousands? Really should have been able to see there was something more to it on your own.

IMHO you should also post the TCK logs, those are funny.

You honestly think we gave a rats ass about 4 wars and nukes after we just fought and took literally thousands? Really should have been able to see there was something more to it on your own.

It was either peace out and not escalate it, or we would show what escalation would be, leading to a scenario where we could very well still be at war with Avalon today

Impero, VE has this lifetime disease of talking out of both sides of its mouth, you oughta see a doctor.

21 more days of war was Doomhouse's idea, not ours, and the option to either peace out or keep going for 21 more days was given to everyone by Doomhouse, not us. You entered Doomhouse's war on Doomhouse's side, accepted Doomhouse's plan, declared war on Avalon, and then when Avalon attacked some of your nations you flipped out and threatened to derail the entire peace process because you were trying to be at war and rebuild at the same time. You're petty, petulant little children that apparently didn't know what declaring war means and shouldn't have pushed the button if you didn't want to get attacked. Your inability to understand that "21 more days of war then white peace" meant exactly that made you a pain in the ass for your allies and the laughing stock of a bunch of micros that had been getting pounded for 3 months but you couldn't handle 4 nukes.

Whats the point of this blog post?

Seriously i read it all and it might be because i'm not a native speaker but can someone sum it for me as i do not see anything wrong with VE's conduct especially anything that would necessitate a blog post.

Whats the point of this blog post?

I think it was always write down who you are fighting and who you declared on.

<Sardonic[GOONS]> oh there you are, good

<Sardonic[GOONS]> I need you to have Avalon stop hitting VE. Avalon never declared war on VE and it's really pissing VE off.

<Sardonic[GOONS]> VE is threatening to demand reps from Avalon if this continues

Aaah that never gets old.

You honestly think we gave a rats ass about 4 wars and nukes after we just fought and took literally thousands? Really should have been able to see there was something more to it on your own.

It was either peace out and not escalate it, or we would show what escalation would be, leading to a scenario where we could very well still be at war with Avalon today

Impero, VE has this lifetime disease of talking out of both sides of its mouth, you oughta see a doctor.21 more days of war was Doomhouse's idea, not ours, and the option to either peace out or keep going for 21 more days was given to everyone by Doomhouse, not us. You entered Doomhouse's war on Doomhouse's side, accepted Doomhouse's plan, declared war on Avalon, and then when Avalon attacked some of your nations you flipped out and threatened to derail the entire peace process because you were trying to be at war and rebuild at the same time. You're petty, petulant little children that apparently didn't know what declaring war means and shouldn't have pushed the button if you didn't want to get attacked. Your inability to understand that "21 more days of war then white peace" meant exactly that made you a pain in the ass for your allies and the laughing stock of a bunch of micros that had been getting pounded for 3 months but you couldn't handle 4 nukes.

Having a rough day champ?

The Viridian Entente fought 2045 wars before the end of the Polar front, which includes 599 defensive wars and 1446 offensive, the latter being the most out of any other alliance at the time peace was declared. Don't tell us that we don't know what declaring war means or were concerned about 4 nukes, idiot.

We have no qualms about fighting a war, but if we are going to fight a war that's exactly what we will do. We don't qualify it, we don't condition it, we don't play TPF's little self righteous "let me hang myself on a cross for 21 days" game that Avalon hitched their wagon to. Up until that time, Avalon had about 3 total wars since we declared on them. If they would have continued to just sit, we wouldn't have noticed. However, once they seized the opportunity, I took notice and made my feelings on the "deal" known. It's pretty simple, the deal was retarded and let Avalon, who had barely fought for the entire war, drop peace finally, hit some choice targets, then walk away. That's absolutely ok for Avalon, I would have done the exact same thing probably if I was in their position (and not looking to get away unnoticed) and there was nothing wrong with it whatsoever, however they don't get to have it both ways. If they wanted to finally come out and fight a war that's great and exactly what we would do, if they wanted to get peace that was fine too, but we don't do the in between thing (which is what both me and goldie were saying, not sure how you think they are inconsistent). If that messes up other peoples plans, well I guess they shouldn't agree to stupid deals then. Avalon chose peace, they completely understood what we meant and were fine with it. If you can't, wealp, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Then again, I know I'm wasting my time explaining this to you since you probably already get what the real deal was and are just being yourself.

Impero:

Doomhouse wanted to go after NPO for an extra 21 days.

We negotiated the idea that others could stay in during that period, in order to support NPO, an idea that your coalition agreed to.

Avalon was going to partake in that option, that your coalition agreed to.

Then you flip out that Avalon was moving to optimize the damage they would conduct in that period.

You panicked and declared a separate peace in order to save the nations who were rebuilding, during a war you declared on Avalon, from Avalon. In all honesty, a tactical error by Avalon, they should have waited till after the terms were signed, because then you couldn't do anything about it without violating the agreement.

Impero:Doomhouse wanted to go after NPO for an extra 21 days.We negotiated the idea that others could stay in during that period, in order to support NPO, an idea that your coalition agreed to.Avalon was going to partake in that option, that your coalition agreed to.Then you flip out that Avalon was moving to optimize the damage they would conduct in that period.You panicked and declared a separate peace in order to save the nations who were rebuilding, during a war you declared on Avalon, from Avalon. In all honesty, a tactical error by Avalon, they should have waited till after the terms were signed, because then you couldn't do anything about it without violating the agreement.

Alright, so you just didn't read what I wrote then?

Impero:Doomhouse wanted to go after NPO for an extra 21 days.We negotiated the idea that others could stay in during that period, in order to support NPO, an idea that your coalition agreed to.Avalon was going to partake in that option, that your coalition agreed to.Then you flip out that Avalon was moving to optimize the damage they would conduct in that period.You panicked and declared a separate peace in order to save the nations who were rebuilding, during a war you declared on Avalon, from Avalon. In all honesty, a tactical error by Avalon, they should have waited till after the terms were signed, because then you couldn't do anything about it without violating the agreement.

Alright, so you just didn't read what I wrote then?

Besides the fact that getting smacked is part of being at war, a concept you are seemingly failing to grasp, is the notion that the war would have persisted for an additional 21 days. If you didn't want that then you should have voiced your concern with the rest of your coalition, since it is your coalition that demanded it in the first place. You shouldn't have signed on to terms you didn't want. Mostly, you shouldn't have jumped in on the war if you weren't prepared to deal with the demands of your goddamned allies.

No, Impero, it's not that we didn't read it, it's that it's a load of horsecrap.

On 3/21, Doom House made this demand of NPO:

<~[`_`]> 1. 100% Of your nations above 80K NS must leave PM.

<~[`_`]> 2. 85% Of your nations between 50K NS and 80K NS must leave PM (leaving room for banks)

<~[`_`]> 3. These nations, once left PM must fight for 30 days.

<~[`_`]> 3a. This period of 30 days will begin when less than 5% of the order are in peace mode, and no one above 80K NS is in peace mode.

<~[`_`]> 4. Pacificans who have not individually surrendered will be considered part of the alliance until they do so.

There was no demand, request, or implication that while NPO continued fighting for 30 more days that everyone else would peace out. At that point, 30 more days for NPO meant 30 more days for everyone else.

On 3/24, NPO and its coalition countered thus:

". . . The New Pacific Order will place an additional 883,000 ns into war mode for two weeks. This NS will be pulled from our 80k+ nations. At the conclusion of two weeks (start and end date to be added once all parties agree) all hostilities will end by and between all signatories. . . ."

Even though peace was already firmly in hand, VE declared war on on Avalon and NADC that night, posting a DoW just after update on 3/25. After we had already agreed to some period of continued war (DH wanted 30, we gave 2 weeks).

By 4/14, a middle-ground of 21 days had been reached, with VE part of coalition peacetalks the entire time as part of DH's coalition.

By 4/22, a formal document had been written outlining exactly how things would progress based on DH's demands:

Article 2: Limited War

A. NPO, and any other alliance that wishes to subject itself to the provisions of this Article 2 (collectively, the "Article 2 Alliances"), shall remain at war until the end of the Limited War described in this Article 2. Upon completion of the Limited War, the Article 2 Alliances shall be given immediate peace.

B. The Limited War shall begin on the day that NPO removes from peace mode nations whose combined nation strength totals at least 1,800,000. Nations whose individual strengths are at least 80,000 shall combine to account for at least 1,000,000 of the required total. Nations whose individual strengths are at least 50,000 but less than 80,000 shall combine to account for at least 800,000 of the required total. Strengths shall be measured as of the date this Agreement is executed.

C. The Limited War shall last for 21 days. At the conclusion of this period, all undersigned alliances still involved in mutual combat shall immediately cease fighting. No action shall be required of any alliance to bring this ceasefire into effect once the 21 day period has elapsed.

D. The combatants agree that no new fronts may be opened, and no new alliances may join the current conflict or the Limited War. An attack on an undersigned alliance by a member of a non-signatory alliance shall be a violation of this Agreement by the alliances that are fighting the attacked alliance at the time of the attack.

Doom House's rebuttal limited the participants of the 21-day period to just NPO, but Doom House immediately allowed TPF and Avalon to also participate upon their request.

On 4/24--SIX DAYS before VE lodged any complaint about any terms which had at this point been available for VE to review for a MONTH--GOONS graciously agreed to allow Avalon to sign a separate peace at the end of the 21-day limited war so that they would not be party to a peace treaty with reps on it.

Now, your lie is that VE always planned to not agree to the terms, and did not suddenly bring this up because of Avalon's stunning attacks on 4 VE nations after signatures for the limited war had already been collected. Your claims are laughable, VE, people literally laugh at this.

For over a month, VE lodged no complaint about Avalon (or anyone's) participation in the limited war. A month. The DAY that Avalon began shouldering its part of the limited war, Sardonic, Goldie, and you all frantically contact our coalition asking what is going on, why is Avalon attacking VE, and VE suddenly starts threatening to break the peace agreement and continue attacking Avalon beyond the 21-day limited war, and to force Avalon into a separate surrender agreement.

Your attempts to play this off as anything except exactly what it was are clownish, Impero. VE's behavior in this situation is shameful, it is hilarious, it is everything everyone knows VE to be.

Ok to clear up some things on our side. For one, I did tell the people in our coalition NOT to post any of the logs relating to the VE- Avalon issue which was resolved. I am sorry that they did VE, and apologize for the frustrations it has caused.

We had been fighting in segmented bursts the entire conflict, 2-3 nations at a time per week. Since I personally oversaw all the target selections we made choices very carefully on who to engage when. Once VE declared on us, we saw a large number of weak war torn nations easy for the pickings, while we still had large warchests and full (-WRC) mill wonders. Our war capable nations had been hurt enough to be able to fight pretty much completely unprepared nations. Since umbrella had pretty much no nations in our range at the time, and MK had almost all their nations in our range in PM at the time, we were focusing on VE and enjoying it.

One VE nation had countered 3 of our guys over a 3 week period, and destroyed each of our nations navies. We wanted to teach him not to do that, so we coordinated a 3 nation naval strike on that guy. We always pick up 3 targets at a time so of course easy unprepared VE targets were selected as the others. This was 3 days away from when the entire peace agreement was posted. We had already heard that VE was staying in on us for the entire conflict (till end of DH/NPO limited war) so we took that nation out at that time, so as not to counter any more of our naval nations.

We wanted to limit our attacks on VE to as little as possible and focus on DH, but since the MK and UMB guys were out of range or in PM, we had no one else to really engage.

When we heard VE wanted to peace, we were fine with that, because it could re-focus us entirely on DH. We were not scared of any long term war or anything, and were willing to do that if necessary. But this provided us with a small strategic victory of ending the conflict with VE. We were very happy to take that, and have no hard feelings for them whatsoever.

After reading this, all I can say is Avalon and VE.

Ok to clear up some things on our side. For one, I did tell the people in our coalition NOT to post any of the logs relating to the VE- Avalon issue which was resolved.

I'mmmm preeeeeetty sure you said don't use your logs, so I used TCK and xoindotnelregkjer's. :3

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Ok to clear up some things on our side. For one, I did tell the people in our coalition NOT to post any of the logs relating to the VE- Avalon issue which was resolved.

I'mmmm preeeeeetty sure you said don't use your logs, so I used TCK and xoindotnelregkjer's. :3

I meant all of them, but whats done is done.

Whats the point of this blog post?

Schattenmann doesn't like VE.

That's pretty much it.

Seriously though all of this is completely irrelevant after the fact, nobody cares.

No, Impero, it's not that we didn't read it, it's that it's a load of horsecrap.On 3/21, Doom House made this demand of NPO:<~[`_`]> 1. 100% Of your nations above 80K NS must leave PM.<~[`_`]> 2. 85% Of your nations between 50K NS and 80K NS must leave PM (leaving room for banks)<~[`_`]> 3. These nations, once left PM must fight for 30 days.<~[`_`]> 3a. This period of 30 days will begin when less than 5% of the order are in peace mode, and no one above 80K NS is in peace mode.<~[`_`]> 4. Pacificans who have not individually surrendered will be considered part of the alliance until they do so.There was no demand, request, or implication that while NPO continued fighting for 30 more days that everyone else would peace out. At that point, 30 more days for NPO meant 30 more days for everyone else.On 3/24, NPO and its coalition countered thus:". . . The New Pacific Order will place an additional 883,000 ns into war mode for two weeks. This NS will be pulled from our 80k+ nations. At the conclusion of two weeks (start and end date to be added once all parties agree) all hostilities will end by and between all signatories. . . ."Even though peace was already firmly in hand, VE declared war on on Avalon and NADC that night, posting a DoW just after update on 3/25. After we had already agreed to some period of continued war (DH wanted 30, we gave 2 weeks).By 4/14, a middle-ground of 21 days had been reached, with VE part of coalition peacetalks the entire time as part of DH's coalition.By 4/22, a formal document had been written outlining exactly how things would progress based on DH's demands:

Article 2: Limited WarA. NPO, and any other alliance that wishes to subject itself to the provisions of this Article 2 (collectively, the "Article 2 Alliances"), shall remain at war until the end of the Limited War described in this Article 2. Upon completion of the Limited War, the Article 2 Alliances shall be given immediate peace.B. The Limited War shall begin on the day that NPO removes from peace mode nations whose combined nation strength totals at least 1,800,000. Nations whose individual strengths are at least 80,000 shall combine to account for at least 1,000,000 of the required total. Nations whose individual strengths are at least 50,000 but less than 80,000 shall combine to account for at least 800,000 of the required total. Strengths shall be measured as of the date this Agreement is executed.C. The Limited War shall last for 21 days. At the conclusion of this period, all undersigned alliances still involved in mutual combat shall immediately cease fighting. No action shall be required of any alliance to bring this ceasefire into effect once the 21 day period has elapsed.D. The combatants agree that no new fronts may be opened, and no new alliances may join the current conflict or the Limited War. An attack on an undersigned alliance by a member of a non-signatory alliance shall be a violation of this Agreement by the alliances that are fighting the attacked alliance at the time of the attack.

Doom House's rebuttal limited the participants of the 21-day period to just NPO, but Doom House immediately allowed TPF and Avalon to also participate upon their request.On 4/24--SIX DAYS before VE lodged any complaint about any terms which had at this point been available for VE to review for a MONTH--GOONS graciously agreed to allow Avalon to sign a separate peace at the end of the 21-day limited war so that they would not be party to a peace treaty with reps on it.Now, your lie is that VE always planned to not agree to the terms, and did not suddenly bring this up because of Avalon's stunning attacks on 4 VE nations after signatures for the limited war had already been collected. Your claims are laughable, VE, people literally laugh at this.For over a month, VE lodged no complaint about Avalon (or anyone's) participation in the limited war. A month. The DAY that Avalon began shouldering its part of the limited war, Sardonic, Goldie, and you all frantically contact our coalition asking what is going on, why is Avalon attacking VE, and VE suddenly starts threatening to break the peace agreement and continue attacking Avalon beyond the 21-day limited war, and to force Avalon into a separate surrender agreement.Your attempts to play this off as anything except exactly what it was are clownish, Impero. VE's behavior in this situation is shameful, it is hilarious, it is everything everyone knows VE to be.

Oh Schattenman, what are we going to do with you slugger. Seriously though, what the hell are you talking about? I mean, really, your kidding around right now, no?

My lie? Where in gods name did I ever say that we planned to not take part in the agreement the entire time, you truly pulled that one out of your ass. If you actually read, you would find out I said I was near finals and not paying attention to CN, specifically noting that we wouldn't have even noticed the retardation of that term if Avalon didn't come out of peace and hit 4 dudes. Aka, my disagreement with the term was formed in about 15 minutes and pretty much the opposite of what you were trying to get at in your tantrum above, and that's because I was too busy in real life to remember that it existed until then (which is why in my first post I said I can't lay it all on their feet and its partially my fault for being inactive, seriously you need to actually read before you start this stuff buddy).

Don't respond all foaming at the mouth if your not even going to read what you're responding to, you end up wasting your time writing up a big post of crap that has literally no bearing on the conversation whatsoever.

What's clownish here is you stroking out because you tried to play the gotcha game again with us and came up empty. Did you realize it made absolutely zero sense that an alliance as heavily engaged as we were would actually give a !@#$ about 4 wars? Or have you been having a rough time and need a little bit of attention? It's ok if you do, don't be upset. If worse comes to worse, you can just make another super special irc room this Saturday night or something like that one time man, it will be fun.

Oh, and no Schattenman, people don't laugh about this. People don't care about this because its you freaking out over 4 wars...or are you now mad about the timeline or something. At this point I'm not even sure what your convulsing about actually. Whatever, either way, point is no one cares and your wrong.

Guffy- Don't worry about it, like I said before, we have no problem with you guys. Also, it hasn't caused us frustration, making Shattenman publicly loose it is a VE pastime, I'll gladly whip up a couple of posts to that end any day.

The logs you see above came within hours, if not minutes of us finding out that Avalon would be allowed to stay in for the extra 21 days. Fit your 'six days' argument into that.

Whats the point of this blog post?

Schattenmann doesn't like VE.That's pretty much it.Seriously though all of this is completely irrelevant after the fact, nobody cares.

Irrelevant? It's the most important stage of post war - spinning someone else's white peace into a strategic victory.

Trying to understand:

However, once they seized the opportunity, I took notice and made my feelings on the "deal" known. It's pretty simple, the deal was retarded and let Avalon, who had barely fought for the entire war, drop peace finally, hit some choice targets, then walk away.

By "hit and then walk away" you mean that at the time (~4/25) it was (or should have been) clear to "all" that the Entente wouldn't have participated in the "Limited War" of the Overtime Accords, thus Avalon's offensive was perceived by you/VE as an attempt to deal further damage without having then to suffer a (significant) counter-offensive - is this interpretation correct?

Wait so we have two pages of arguing, and the only thing that makes any sense is VE got a little roughed up by Polar, then went to the NPO front, Declared on Avalon who were told 21 more days of war and white peace.. So Avalon came up with a great strategy to stay in PM till the last minute then come out dumping as much nook damage as possible, and VE was like oh noes, someone out smarted us, now we have to derail peace...

Did I get that right? Usually when alliances say you have to fight "xx" more days, its because you want to do as much damage as possible to them to make paying any reps if assigned harder for them to pay. Its for the side curbstomping the little guys to get as much tech and land as possible while still demanding more. Its the strategy to bleed the losing side dry. However, no one actually said, hey you have to have so and so amount of nations out of peace to fight... so Avalon did the smart thing, and used a blitz to cause as much damage as possible...

Hmmm.. Poor VE got out fox'd by the little guy for once and didn't like it.. am i wrong?